From Age To Age: Mentoring the Next Generation of Bible Teachers

[00:00:00] Don't be afraid to try stuff. You're gonna fail. You will fail. But that's okay. Because there's grace and Jesus helps you and, you know, you will learn and you will grow. And with that, I think the opposite is to become paralyzed in our unwillingness to try because it's like, ah, what if I fail? And I've just learned to embrace like I'm gonna like, I don't know what's that book, you know, fail forward, like, I'm gonna, if I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna fail forward, you know. And God will have grace and help

[00:00:29] guide you through that. So that's kind of what I've learned and hopefully that's helpful for you.

[00:00:34] Hey, welcome to the Expositors Collective Podcast Episode 343. I'm your host, Mike Neglia.

[00:00:42] This week's episode is a panel discussion that was recorded just over a year ago at one of our preacher training events.

[00:00:51] This one was hosted at Reliance Church in Temecula, California. And the panel features Brian Stupar,

[00:00:59] Alan Stoddard, Brenda Leavenworth, and Danny Ramos. The theme of most of the questions had to do with mentorship,

[00:01:08] passing the baton from one generation to the next. And as I was putting this panel together,

[00:01:17] I actually was really thrilled to be able to include Danny Ramos as one of the panelists.

[00:01:23] Danny was a very influential voice and presence in my life. In fact, I am a Christian and a follower of

[00:01:32] Jesus because of the ministry of Danny Ramos. I am forever and eternally in his debt. And since I've

[00:01:40] benefited from him so much, I definitely wanted you guys to be able to listen and learn from Danny Ramos,

[00:01:47] as well as the other panelists. I hope that this conversation that you get to listen in on is going

[00:01:55] to inspire you and encourage you to not gatekeep information or knowledge, but to always be on the

[00:02:03] lookout to pass on what we have picked up over the years. And that could be something as simple or small

[00:02:11] as sending a podcast to somebody or scheduling a meal or inviting somebody to come with you on a

[00:02:20] ministry trip or any number of things. Well, Hey, speaking of ministry trips, we have a trip coming

[00:02:26] up, Expositors Collective. We're going to Africa. We're going to Kampala, Uganda, September 11th,

[00:02:32] 12th, and 13th. We're putting on a three-day preacher's training event. And the goal, you've heard

[00:02:39] this week after week, the goal is we're trying to crowdsource sponsorships for pastors and preachers

[00:02:50] from the villages on the outskirts of Uganda to be able to sponsor their room and their board and

[00:02:59] their travel expenses to come in for a couple of days to come into the big city of Kampala.

[00:03:05] Kampala. Calvary Chapel Kampala is hosting this event and they are like a church planting machine.

[00:03:11] They have planted in the triple digits over the, I think, 22 years of their existence.

[00:03:18] They've planted more than 100 churches in Kampala city and especially in what they call the bush region

[00:03:26] in the kind of outskirts of Uganda. And they want to be able to pay the way for many of those

[00:03:32] planters to come back to the city to be encouraged. And so we've been asking you, the listeners,

[00:03:39] to invest in them. And the goal has been, we wanted $10,000 to be able to bring these guys in.

[00:03:50] And as of the time I'm recording this, we've raised 9,600. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:03:58] Thank you. This is not going for my flight. This is not going to cover the cost of Brian Kelly's

[00:04:03] flight or like this is to help local guys make the way into the city to be encouraged and to be

[00:04:10] equipped. Thank you so much. I promise we're going to do our best and you have played a part in it.

[00:04:17] Thank you so much to the many donors. There's been a few large donations that have come in,

[00:04:22] but it's actually been very encouraging to see these small donations from the listeners to the podcast.

[00:04:28] Thank you so much for making this a reality. All right. Well, here's actually a very quick

[00:04:33] message from Brian Kelly and Zeddy Mzungu. And then you're going to hear this panel discussion

[00:04:39] on the importance of mentorship. Pastor Zeddy is my name. I do pastor Calvichapu Kampala,

[00:04:44] and we're trying to get over 200 pastors to come to Kampala. It's in the middle of the city.

[00:04:50] So some are going to be traveling from way out of the country. So we're asking you guys to get

[00:04:55] involved in some way. We need your help to help these pastors get into the conference. The

[00:05:00] conference is free of charge. We're going to provide it free of charge for those who can't

[00:05:03] attend. However, some of these pastors are coming from remote areas. They need to cover the cost

[00:05:08] of transportation, food and lodging while they're there. That's going to cost about $100 per pastor.

[00:05:13] So if you can help us sponsor a pastor to get to the conference, we'd really appreciate it. You can do

[00:05:18] so at the Expositors Collective website. Yeah, that's right. Thanks guys. Appreciate your prayers.

[00:05:23] And would you help us sponsor an expositor? Hey, Brian, what does preaching mentorship look like

[00:05:34] in your church or your life or your experience?

[00:05:41] We have a teaching team. And one of the things over the past few years, maybe five years,

[00:05:48] I've tried to craft into our regular Sunday morning gatherings where I'll preach.

[00:05:57] I'm not even sure how it would turn out as far as like percentage wise, but I craft it so that maybe

[00:06:03] once a month or once every six weeks, someone else is able to teach. There's a couple reasons why we

[00:06:09] are intentional about this. Number one, I don't want our church to become dependent upon me.

[00:06:15] It's very popular. I've literally have talked with pastors before that craft their church around

[00:06:20] themselves, their personality. I had one guy tell me recently or several years ago, and he can't even

[00:06:27] go on vacation because when he does, attendance plummets and money drops. And I'm like, that system

[00:06:32] is horrible. If that's the American church paradigm, then I'm kind of ready to check out and figure out a

[00:06:40] new paradigm. Because that's a number one, not a biblical paradigm. Number two is I don't think it's a

[00:06:46] sustainable paradigm long term. So I think one of the ways that we can recraft that is gear the people in our

[00:06:56] church so that they become accepting and eager to hear other voices rather than maybe my voice. And again, I am the

[00:07:04] founding pastor, I think I will always have a unique relationship in that context because of that. But at the same time, I want to be able to use my

[00:07:13] platform to, I don't know, someone else said it earlier to platform others. I'm a big believer of that. So that's what we do on a Sunday

[00:07:19] morning. There's other contexts where we're very intentional. So for example, I lead a men's group as well. One of the things that we've done

[00:07:28] is really try to go after the hearts of the men in our church. And this past season of our men's group, what we've done

[00:07:34] is we'll have a time for, we do, we have a, we actually have a liturgy of how we do our men's things every single time. I tell the

[00:07:41] guys the reason why we do it the same every single time, because we're trying to develop spiritual muscle so you learn and grow

[00:07:48] and become a man of God. That being said, part of that involves processing the teachings of Scripture, the Bible.

[00:07:57] And we break that down into two segments. First is a word of exhortation or encouragement. The second is a

[00:08:04] word of exposition. So you'll like that, Mike. It's kind of like plays in the whole like theme that we got

[00:08:08] going on here. Kind of like the expositors vibe. So we do that. So usually the expositional part, I'll be the

[00:08:15] one to teach unless I have another person teaching. But the word of encouragement and or exhortation,

[00:08:23] I have different guys every single time coming into doing that. Some of these guys have never

[00:08:27] taught the Bible before. They don't have any official role in our church. And I walk them through,

[00:08:32] sit down with them, walk them through saying, hey, here's the passage I'm going to be teaching on,

[00:08:36] you know, in a few weeks. I want you to spend some time with the Scripture every single day for at

[00:08:41] least a week, reading it, praying through it, asking the Holy Spirit what he's going to speak to you

[00:08:45] about it. I give him a paradigm of how to read it. And then we create space everything,

[00:08:49] every single time we have our men's thing where I'll have that guy come on up. I'll pray over him.

[00:08:55] I'm like, hey, brother so-and-so is going to share the word of exhortation and encouragement with us.

[00:09:00] Then I'll give the exposition after that. And we treat it like you're preaching right now.

[00:09:06] And it's awesome. And I've seen so many of these guys go on to either get a vision for wanting to

[00:09:12] preach the Bible, like in a Bible study, or to get involved in another form of teaching.

[00:09:17] So that's kind of how we do that. That's my long answer.

[00:09:20] Wow. Yeah. Hey, thanks. So thank you. Danny, I want to ask you. So as long as I have known you,

[00:09:26] you've been collecting younger men and encouraging us and putting work into our character and then also

[00:09:35] our competencies. Number one, why do you do that? And then number two, what have you learned over the

[00:09:42] years? Because you've been doing this for at least 20 years and probably longer. So what are things that you

[00:09:49] used to do in mentoring relationships? And how have you even progressed and learned in these couple decades?

[00:09:57] Well, I think part of my motivation comes from the fact that there was nobody there for me when I started.

[00:10:03] I started at the age of 31 as a youth pastor, oversaw children's ministry at Calvary Chapel Fallbrook.

[00:10:09] And then out of the children's ministry, we grew a youth group. And that's where I encountered Mr.

[00:10:15] Negley and so many other gifted young men like him. And so I think, you know, when you look at your own

[00:10:21] life and you might say, well, I wish that there had been this in my life. It's a great motivation to

[00:10:27] then look around you and provide that for others. I think by the grace of God, I've just seen God's

[00:10:36] hand on young men who, and young women for that matter, who are gifted and have a desire to

[00:10:43] communicate God's word. And, you know, as Alan was sharing us this morning from 2 Timothy chapter 2,

[00:10:53] it's kind of the whole theme. Paul's in the Mamertine prison, right? He's not likely see his

[00:10:59] spiritual son again. And he talks about stewardship. And I think that we are certainly entrusted with the

[00:11:06] word of God to be good stewards of the word of God. But I see myself, especially more towards the end

[00:11:12] of my ministry, as being a steward of the ministry. Do I have love for the church and love for these young

[00:11:20] people so that once I'm gone, they will continue on. The baton will be passed. Danny will be forgotten,

[00:11:26] thank goodness. And yet the ministry will continue. It will continue. But I can either hold on to it

[00:11:34] because I derive my identity from it, or I can believe that the Lord wants to further the ministry

[00:11:41] through the lives of these young people. And I think stewardship would also, within my oversight up

[00:11:48] until recently, with student ministries, so middle school, high school, and young adults. I want to provide an

[00:11:54] opportunity for young women to teach the Bible as well, to recognize that within them there is a gifting.

[00:12:00] I want to provide a place for them to express that gifting. Now, sometimes, sometimes we see the person up there,

[00:12:10] we hear them, and we have the thought, I can do that. And so I could stand in front of people and say,

[00:12:17] I believe in young people, I believe in men in ministry, I believe in women in ministry. But if I

[00:12:22] don't present that in front of the young people, they'll never have that concept or that idea spring

[00:12:27] up from within. And so I believe in my latter years, this is something that's extremely important.

[00:12:35] Yeah. Hey, thanks. I'm tempted to ask who is your favorite, but I'm going to instead pass this on to...

[00:12:41] Here's the next question.

[00:12:44] I hope this still connects, but this is a question for Brian. I know that you planted Calvary, San Luis,

[00:12:51] Obispo when you were 23. What were some of the issues you faced as such a young church planner?

[00:12:59] And what is your advice for other younger church planners as well?

[00:13:03] Yeah. What's your name?

[00:13:04] Jacob.

[00:13:04] Jacob. Nice to meet you. Yeah. I just, I was a lot of insecurities. I think early on when our church

[00:13:14] began to grow, we had, I mean, we originally started, we started off just as a Bible study in

[00:13:19] our house and that, that grew pretty rapidly and quickly, but it was a lot of younger people,

[00:13:24] my age peers, you know, others maybe a couple of years older than me. But I, when we first actually

[00:13:30] planted on Sunday morning type or, you know, traditional style, like worship services on

[00:13:35] Sunday morning, we had a handful of like older people and back then older meant like 40 and,

[00:13:41] you know, which, which I'm, I, yeah, exactly. And I'm, I'm, I'm well beyond 40 now, but,

[00:13:47] and I remember just thinking about feeling really insecure. Like one guy in particular, he had,

[00:13:53] he was, had a pretty vast understanding of the Bible. So I'd always kind of feel really insecure

[00:13:57] about what I knew about the scripture around him. So it was getting over those insecurities.

[00:14:05] I think the other thing was like learning to kind of find my voice that God had given me.

[00:14:09] I don't know any real shortcut to that other than it just takes a long time of like practice and

[00:14:15] making mistakes and doing the best you can with what you have.

[00:14:21] Having an, an open heart of just to learn. Someone had mentioned, I think might've been you about the

[00:14:28] importance of just even asking mentors to come into your life. I wish I would have had that

[00:14:32] information at an early age. I did have a couple of mentors in my life, but a couple of them, most of

[00:14:37] them were actually either pastors elsewhere. So I didn't have a whole lot of access to them.

[00:14:41] Um, but I think that's a, that's a huge aspect. If you have someone that's close to you,

[00:14:45] sometimes it would require you to actually be active in pursuing that and inviting them because

[00:14:51] likely chances they might be busy, might have a lot of stuff on their radar already.

[00:14:55] So I think inviting other people into your life could be helpful. And then I think the last thing

[00:14:59] is just, I don't, don't be afraid to try stuff. You're going to fail. You will fail,

[00:15:05] but that's okay because there's grace and Jesus helps you. And, you know, you will learn and you'll

[00:15:12] grow. And with that, I think the opposite is to become paralyzed in our unwillingness to try.

[00:15:18] Cause it's like, ah, what if I fail? And I've just learned to embrace, like, I'm going to like,

[00:15:22] I don't know what's that book, you know, fail forward. Like I'm going to, if I'm going to fail,

[00:15:26] I'm going to fail forward, you know? Um, and God will have grace and help guide you through that.

[00:15:32] So that's kind of what I've learned and hopefully that's helpful for you. Yeah. If you want to talk

[00:15:37] even further, grab me. Wow. Yeah. And, and, and Brian means that he really does want to talk to you.

[00:15:44] All right. Next question. Uh, you kind of, you kind of hit on it right now, but, uh,

[00:15:50] would you consider it wise to seek mentorship outside of your own church? And yeah, yeah,

[00:15:56] no, that's it. I'll leave it there. I'm sorry, me? Oh, for anyone. I'll just, since I got the mic

[00:16:05] right here, I'll say, yeah, for sure. I mean, I like to talk. Um, yes, for sure. Um, go broad,

[00:16:13] go, go wide. You know, I, I think there's something to be said about even finding people that might even

[00:16:19] be outside of your tribe. Um, I got saved within Calvary. I don't assume that everybody here is

[00:16:25] like Calvary Chapel tribe or flavor or whatever. I got saved in Calvary Chapel. That's all that I

[00:16:29] knew my whole life. I was, I grew up Catholic. Um, I think when people ask me about our, our church,

[00:16:36] I like our roots are Calvary Chapel, but our, our, uh, our influences are broad, evangelical,

[00:16:43] historic Christian, you know, uh, Christian church that just goes deep and broad. Um, so I,

[00:16:50] I think there's some, there's a value to be had in inviting other people that just are deeply committed

[00:16:54] to the gospel who love Jesus that might not even be part of your tribe, um, to invite them to speak

[00:17:00] into your life. And there's, there's various offerings that different leaders and mentors

[00:17:05] are going to be able to provide. So that's my thought there. Yeah. I'm sitting here thinking

[00:17:12] about how the black church has really influenced me as you guys could hear and what I presented.

[00:17:19] And, uh, I would recommend getting outside the camp. Now that doesn't mean you're changing.

[00:17:25] That's the core of who you are, but I think we, we, we get too much into our, our tribe and we do it

[00:17:34] like this. Well, everybody tried to be like Chuck Smith. Uh, well, you can't do that. There's only one

[00:17:41] Chuck Smith and you got to be you. Um, so, um, get outside the box, uh, even going to workshops or

[00:17:51] conferences or something like that. You don't have to be mentored maybe by outside the camp. There's

[00:17:54] other stuff. Go check it out. Um, one of the best preaching conferences that I've ever been to is a

[00:18:00] black preaching conference in Dallas called the EK belly expository preaching conference. And, you know,

[00:18:05] it's a whole different culture. It's a whole different culture than what I live in and my style

[00:18:13] of ministry, but I want to hear the voice of God from there. So anyway, and there's technique.

[00:18:18] So, yeah. You know, some young guys and girls have the, the privilege of growing up in amazing

[00:18:30] churches where they don't even realize how blessed they are to have all these mentors and role models

[00:18:36] that they didn't ask for. I think of like growing up, maybe in Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, if there's

[00:18:42] a calling on your life, uh, the opportunity for ministry success is just laid out for you on a

[00:18:47] platter if you want it, you know, but then there's other people who have nothing, um, no mentors,

[00:18:54] maybe not even a Christian mom or dad, and they want to serve the Lord, but no one is coming to them

[00:18:59] and they're in a place of, I'm sure there's someone in here. It was like, what do I do? How do I

[00:19:03] pursue this? What would you encourage those people that are just looking for some, somebody or something?

[00:19:10] I can speak to that because I did not grow up in a Christian home. Um, I didn't get saved until

[00:19:16] probably my early twenties. Um, and when I was going into nursing school and I actually dropped out

[00:19:25] because I was going to have to take a public speaking course, putting a microphone in front of

[00:19:30] my mouth was nothing that I would ever do naturally. It wasn't within me. And so when

[00:19:37] God first had called me to the worship team and then later, um, to a teaching ministry,

[00:19:43] I thought he was literally insane. And my first experience as a teacher, um, you know, you,

[00:19:51] for women, it's, it's predominantly to women and it's usually events or retreats or so you get this,

[00:19:58] you know, this theme that they came up with. They throw you a theme, they give you one verse and

[00:20:03] tell you to turn it into four sermons. And so I'm, I'm teaching and a lady raises her hand in the front

[00:20:10] seat and I'm thinking, um, I didn't, I didn't think we were doing Q and A, but okay. And I kind of like

[00:20:18] gestured to her and she's like, are you okay? You're all red and blotchy. And I just like,

[00:20:25] almost in that moment looked up at God, like I told you this isn't me. Like quit nagging me,

[00:20:34] get off me. I mean, I seriously was like, no, that's it. I'm never doing this again. And

[00:20:41] I had to settle with God and wrestle with God that it actually isn't about me. And the day that I

[00:20:48] realized that, that this calling, the gifting that he's given me, I'm only to be obedient.

[00:20:54] And so every time I walk up on the stage, I'm very well aware this is not me naturally. And so,

[00:21:02] um, I think what you're saying is, you know, we don't know where to go and we don't know who to

[00:21:07] turn to. And sometimes the teaching opportunities are thrown to you. And I like, I've met mentors

[00:21:13] come in all, we get mentored by podcasts. We get mentored by listening to good preaching. We get

[00:21:21] my passion for women in particular is that, um, we teach the Bible well, because there, there is a vast

[00:21:29] majority. And someone said it's in men too, but there's a vast majority of women teachers who do

[00:21:36] not know how to teach the scriptures and women need good theology in the seats so that, and doctrines so

[00:21:43] that they can live their lives well. And so that's a, that's a passion of mine, but how do you do it?

[00:21:48] I mean, I fumbled through it and didn't do it well, but I, but I think listening to good preachers,

[00:21:54] getting mentorships, reading books, I mean, anything you can grab to be equipped, um, you should invest.

[00:22:01] And there's no, uh, there's no substitute for your time in a studying seat. If you don't like to study

[00:22:09] and you don't like to sit and you don't like to say no to fun lunches that your friends are going on

[00:22:12] because you've got something else you have to do, then, then it might not be for you, but, um, you have

[00:22:19] to invest, you have to continue to learn, you have to be teachable, and you have to just keep trying

[00:22:24] and trying and trying and, um, asking God for his Holy Spirit to help. Yeah. Yeah. And I would add,

[00:22:37] um, yeah, to what you're saying, uh, HB Charles Jr., great, great preacher. Um, he said that, yeah,

[00:22:42] to, uh, a desire to preach without a, without a burden to study is evidently just a desire to perform.

[00:22:51] And so what you're saying, yeah, we have to say no to certain fun lunches in order to spend time at

[00:22:57] the seat so that we have something worth saying later on. All right. Here's Tommy. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

[00:23:05] I have a question. What are your thoughts on, um, these healthy expectations in, in way of, uh, um,

[00:23:13] like mentoring men and women that, that, um, that want to preach and, and, uh, and, and learn,

[00:23:22] learn how to communicate the Bible effectively in the local church. But at the same time,

[00:23:27] you know, they, uh, these men and women have schedules of not just, you know, 40 to 50 hour

[00:23:35] work weeks, but have, you know, uh, uh, uh, a house full of, of young kids and those responsibilities,

[00:23:43] you know? And, uh, so what are some healthy expectations or maybe some things of like,

[00:23:48] okay, uh, as, as far as like mentorship and, and raising them up?

[00:23:56] I like it when you talk, but, um, I can speak from personal experience. So I was a youth pastor

[00:24:01] at Calvary Fawberg for 12 years. My wife, Wanda, and I became Christians in 1978. We left in about

[00:24:07] 2000. When I left, uh, immediately went back into construction because that's what I know.

[00:24:13] Um, I was invited to teach a number of classes at, at the Calvary Bible, uh, college. And so that's a

[00:24:19] full day of construction with, uh, you know, husband and dad responsibilities. And so I found

[00:24:24] myself up about two o'clock in the morning. And that's when I would study and God gave me the

[00:24:30] grace. I don't know that the classes were the best, but God gave me the grace, um, if I made

[00:24:35] the sacrifice to be able to do that. And so I think, I think personally, each one of our journeys

[00:24:41] is a little different. Obviously that's the case. I never had a formal education, but I loved

[00:24:46] early on reading books on preaching, G Campbell Morgan, Martin Lloyd-Jones. They just, they

[00:24:52] discipled me. Uh, when I remember when I read Martin Lloyd-Jones' book called The Puritans,

[00:24:57] I wept. I wept, um, just because of the, you know, just because of what I was experiencing.

[00:25:04] There is a, there is a way. There will always be a way. Um, even, you know, if we have to adjust

[00:25:10] our schedules or make some of the hard choices, but I would never sacrifice my, my marriage or

[00:25:15] my children, uh, in order for ministry. Um, for sure. I'm not saying that, but I did give

[00:25:22] up some sleep and have some tough days sometimes. And again, I don't know that those classes

[00:25:27] were always the best for the students that took them. You know, one thing that hasn't

[00:25:31] been mentioned here, but just a little bit, um, if you're going to teach the Bible, you're

[00:25:36] going to experience spiritual opposition. You're going, as Tim Keller says, you're going

[00:25:41] against the headwind. It's not going to be easy. Uh, sure. It's going to fire up all of your

[00:25:47] insecurities and all of your fears. And I don't have this and I don't have that, but, but your desire

[00:25:53] to serve the Lord because you love the Lord and you love his word will motivate you and you will

[00:26:00] sacrifice. And there will be spiritual opposition. I know for me, I teach on Wednesday nights and

[00:26:05] occasionally on the weekend for pastor Daniel Bentley. And, and I feel it. I feel easily

[00:26:12] discouraged. And, and there are times that I hammer out my notes and they're perfect to go. And right

[00:26:17] before I go out, I go over my, and I go, this makes no sense to me. What in the world am I going to do?

[00:26:23] And so spiritual opposition, warfare, oppression, whatever you want, you are going against the flow.

[00:26:32] When you handle this book personally and publicly. So please know that it's to be expected. I have a team

[00:26:41] of people who pray for me and I notice a difference. I have, we have a team that prays for pastor Daniel

[00:26:48] while he's teaching. We have people who are praying for him. We pray for the weekend services and we, and we

[00:26:55] gather to pray because, because of this opposition. And I, let me tell you something. If you have

[00:27:02] people praying for you, there will be opportunities and, and God will bless your ministry. But it is

[00:27:09] important to not enter into these waters without counting the cost of being willing to pray yourself

[00:27:15] and ask others to pray for you. Amen to that. I'm thinking about a lady that when we, and you have to

[00:27:25] figure out what the strategy is going to be, is it one-on-one, one-on-three, has a different field than

[00:27:31] a school of ministry class, let's say of 12, to use Jesus numbers. We had a girl that came to our school

[00:27:39] of ministry class. We probably had eight to 10 of us in there. They were just interested in learning

[00:27:45] how to teach and preach the Bible. They had never been in a church where somebody offered that.

[00:27:50] So there was a hippie girl that came and she had a little girl named Story. This little girl was

[00:27:57] precious. I loved her. And she would make noise in the service. And you know, there's some churches

[00:28:03] that told them they're too loud. I let it be known. I don't care if there's a baby crying, let her cry.

[00:28:09] I'd rather have a crying baby in the room. Ain't no baby going to out preach me. I mean,

[00:28:16] and what's going to happen? Mom's going to get up. She's going to walk out. And we're a smaller

[00:28:21] church. So it worked for us. Okay. And a bigger church may not work, but this, my point is this

[00:28:25] lady came to the school of ministry and I told her, just bring Story. We, I don't have childcare. I said,

[00:28:32] bring her. She's not going to hurt us. We're going to be fine. So I think you have to massage

[00:28:38] the equipping experience to match people and get them equipped. And that may mean we have to let them

[00:28:44] bring their kids and we don't get, it's not a big deal. And then next I would just say, and I don't

[00:28:50] have to talk much about this. Think in the long term, think in a one year run, not a eight week course.

[00:28:57] Think about a year or two of equipping someone. That is a lot of equipping. An eight week course,

[00:29:02] we'll just be getting through it. I think to your question, as a woman, we are very busy. We,

[00:29:09] you know, sometimes God calls us when we have little kids in the house and, you know, how am I going to

[00:29:14] do it all? How am I going to raise children and study and, and do all these things? Sleep is, is

[00:29:19] something that you have to determine to give up. Two things I would say to that. One, it can be

[00:29:24] seasonal. Some of my younger moms will say, Hey, because I like to take risks on people. I don't teach

[00:29:30] all of our, all of our studies. I, I'm in a teaching team of maybe six or eight ladies right now and we

[00:29:36] rotate. So I, I don't do the lion's share of the teaching and I love to take risks on younger teachers.

[00:29:42] But sometimes they'll say, can you only put me in once this semester? I'll see how much they can

[00:29:47] handle. The other thing is a supportive husband. Because when I was younger, I had a husband who would

[00:29:53] say, you know what, I want to, I want to invest in your gifts too. And so I'll take the kids and I'll let

[00:29:58] you study. That doesn't happen all the time. I have ladies who teach that their, their husbands aren't

[00:30:04] as supportive. And so they have to get up earlier, make sure all their stuff's done and they still

[00:30:09] want to teach. And there's, there's a way that they can do that. But I, I think it's that balance between

[00:30:16] knowing your limits, knowing the boundaries that God has set and that things are done.

[00:30:21] What, what I don't want is for a woman to be teaching and her house is a wreck and her kids

[00:30:28] are a wreck and her marriage is falling apart because she wants to teach. What I want is God's

[00:30:35] gifting and he's giving her the time. Yes, it's work. Yes, there's spiritual warfare, but there's

[00:30:40] support and, and she's doing it well because it's not only about teaching, right? It's about our

[00:30:45] character. It's about the way we're serving God. And so all of that has to be in order, um, to do it,

[00:30:52] to do it well and healthy. We want it to be biblically healthy for, for everybody, for the

[00:30:57] person doing it. And cause I can put someone that's talented and, and help them ruin their lives

[00:31:03] at the same time. So it's, we have to be discerning, I think as well.

[00:31:08] Can I ask a clarifying question? Um, so, okay. Was, was it the expectation as say for someone who wants

[00:31:16] to do ministry or was it the expectation of what others say, for example, a senior pastor is having

[00:31:22] upon that person? I think it's kind of both. Kind of both. Okay. So I would say, and I'll be quick and

[00:31:29] hopefully concise. Um, so I would say calling, timing, season, and unity. So calling is God calling

[00:31:36] you. First and foremost, I think it's important to just kind of like settle that, wrestle with that.

[00:31:40] Now calling doesn't mean that you immediately just go and do something. And sometimes God incubates,

[00:31:45] you know, sometimes God says, let it rest and it's going to happen. And that's when it kind of

[00:31:49] moves into the next one, which is timing. Um, sometimes God puts something in your heart and

[00:31:54] it's going to sit there. It's going to stew, it's going to grow, it's going to gestate, you know,

[00:31:57] it's going to become something beautiful over time. Um, and then, uh, seasons. Sometimes you got

[00:32:03] to be aware of the seasons in your life and pastors need to be aware of the seasons

[00:32:06] of other people's, uh, situations in our life. Um, I, I think sometimes conflict arises

[00:32:12] when, in, in both contexts where I'll speak from a pastor's perspective, where if a, if

[00:32:17] a pastor has someone in his church that he sees called and sees gifting and yet, you know,

[00:32:24] he's got three kids and they're all like under the age of four, like in that pastor is like,

[00:32:28] you know, tapping his toes and he's getting impatient. It's like, come on, bro. Like I made

[00:32:32] sacrifices. Like, I don't think that's fair personally. I don't, I think that's an unfair

[00:32:38] expectation that someone else is putting or imposing upon you. And I think that pastor needs

[00:32:42] to learn to kind of just chill a little bit and gain some little patience prayer, you know,

[00:32:48] trust that God's going to provide someone else because maybe he's putting too much expectation

[00:32:51] upon that person that that could create tension for the person that's in the context of wanting to,

[00:32:57] you know, get into the place of ministry. Um, the call for patience is important for him because he

[00:33:04] may need to take a look at the circumstance of his life where if in that context there it's maybe a

[00:33:12] matter of seasons, um, that it might not be for that moment, but it will be at for another time.

[00:33:18] And in that season right there, you gotta look at the fact that God's called me to ministry,

[00:33:22] ministry, but ministry might not be holding a mic and standing up on the stage. It might be like

[00:33:26] loving my kids. It might be helping my wife. It might be just providing a stable or some form

[00:33:32] of stability at the household. It might be working a full-time job, might be paying my bills. It might

[00:33:37] be, you know, doing something that's productive and it might take a little bit of a backseat from the

[00:33:42] real deep longing. And then the last thing is, um, what was the last one I said? Oh, unity,

[00:33:47] unity within the marriage. I think it's crucial. Um, look, I think there have been patterns of history

[00:33:54] in the church where, um, so much emphasis been placed upon, you know, what is God calling me

[00:34:01] as an individual to go do? And some, I've, I've heard pastors even say things. It doesn't really

[00:34:07] matter what my wife thinks. This is a call in my life. And I'm just like, dude, that's like straight

[00:34:11] a recipe for divorce. And I mean like, and just complete distortion of the gospel, but like,

[00:34:17] whatever, like go for it. And it's, and it's like, see how it works out for you. You know, it's like,

[00:34:22] whatever. But the point that I make is that I'm a, I think Jesus actually cares about the marriage.

[00:34:28] He said so. He cares about the unity of the marriage. He said so. It's a model of the gospel.

[00:34:34] And here we're going to talk about distorting that thing so that, you know, you can get your ego

[00:34:39] struck to go preach. Like that's kind of weird. And I don't think representative of, of Jesus. So

[00:34:47] I have a good friend of mine in our church, super solid guy. He's been a worship leader. He's a

[00:34:51] fantastic teacher. He went to Western graduated, you know, he's got his degree, super smart guy,

[00:34:56] super well capable, able. Um, and I would say I've had these long conversations with him where he really

[00:35:04] wants to get involved in ministry. And he is that guy who's got three young kids and has had to

[00:35:08] work full time to pay the bills and whatnot. And it's been hard for him. And my coaching him

[00:35:13] for the, for years is just like, bro, I promise you God has a call in your life. I've heard you

[00:35:20] teach. I've watched your life, your doctrine, everything about you and your wife. You're, you

[00:35:26] guys are amazing. I don't know why I wish I can snap my fingers right now and provide magical

[00:35:32] amounts of money in our church so that I can put you on staff. We can't. I wish I could.

[00:35:36] And you're awesome. And I promise you one of these days, all of this, that God's invested

[00:35:41] in you and that you've worked hard is going to get put to use. I don't know when, but Jesus

[00:35:47] is faithful to you and he's faithful to your, your wife and it will happen at some point.

[00:35:51] But for now you may need to look for alternative ways to use giftings that God's given you to

[00:35:56] honor him, to love your wife and to use those giftings that have been distributed to you

[00:36:03] by grace. So that's my take on that.

[00:36:08] Wow. Hey, we have one last question and this will be kind of a, kind of a lightning round.

[00:36:14] All right. So I don't know what Michael's going to ask, but I'd love some, some quick thoughts

[00:36:20] and then we'll go on to our final session.

[00:36:22] So, um, in a more Southern Baptist culture, um, and more like large churches, especially ones with

[00:36:31] like multiple campuses, uh, more churches are doing expositional staffs or preaching staffs

[00:36:37] where different individuals will do the expositional work and then come together, do more

[00:36:43] expositional work together and then like go out and teach that or preach that. Um, so I wanted to hear

[00:36:49] some of your thoughts on like how that could be like good or bad, or if that should be a pursuit.

[00:36:54] Um, and if you want to flavorful the question, uh, what do you think about having women on

[00:37:00] preaching staffs to use more of their expositional skills and mindset and stuff?

[00:37:05] I'll hit that. Uh, I'm a sermon based small groups guy and I got motivated for it at Gordon

[00:37:14] Commonwealth doing a doctoral stuff. Once I studied, I couldn't get a dissertation approved.

[00:37:20] I was a loser anyway. And finally I was reading something and I got sermon based small groups.

[00:37:26] I got turned on to Larry Osborne and I think small groups and expository preaching go together.

[00:37:34] I think if you're going to have a disciple making ministry, it's not going to just happen from a

[00:37:39] platform. That's my philosophy. Um, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it's not only going

[00:37:44] to happen. Let me be clear. I think what, uh, they do at North Coast church with Larry Osborne,

[00:37:50] those guys, I sat in on one of their meetings during my research. I researched about 30 churches,

[00:37:55] a lot of them Southern California 12 years ago, and they have a, they had a teaching team. I think

[00:38:02] it's great to have women in the room on it because they see things that we don't see. I think, um,

[00:38:10] as long as we stick with the scriptures, a complimentary view of the Bible and all this

[00:38:13] stuff, you know, we got elders that are male. I get that. I I'm totally with that, but I don't think

[00:38:19] that's a reason why we can't have the ladies in the room who can teach the Bible and help us. And we

[00:38:25] help them. I think now I'm going to start preaching, but I think the church has gotten this

[00:38:29] really a bad rap. I think we've been labeled like anti-women in a way that is not true. It's,

[00:38:37] I just go, really? Where'd this happen? Somebody has been watching the Duggars, man. Um, it,

[00:38:44] it, it's just weird. And I'm ready to reframe that narrative within a biblical framework that honors

[00:38:50] God. So I think a teaching team, now you do a teaching team, don't you? Didn't I hear you say

[00:38:55] that? What's that look like for you? What are you sitting there thinking? Not like that. Okay.

[00:38:59] Not, sorry. Not like that. It's, it's totally different. But still, I'm handing it off to you.

[00:39:03] Yeah. Um, guys, let's, let's keep the lightning in the lightning rounds too. Yeah. Sorry, brother.

[00:39:10] Honestly, I don't, I don't have a whole lot to say to the teaching team dynamics. We just have a

[00:39:14] group of people who won't give them a text and they preach it. I think one perspective is in,

[00:39:21] in working with younger men and women is, um, I need to be discipled by them. I don't always

[00:39:28] understand the younger generation's view on culture. And in an, I'm not trying, I'm 67. I'm not trying to

[00:39:35] be younger. I embrace, I embrace a senior citizen discount. However, however, I want to serve a church

[00:39:43] that has multiple generations. I want multiple ethnicities. I want to be humble. I want to

[00:39:51] understand. I want to grow. Um, I want to love the whole church, not just people who are like me.

[00:39:58] I want to love people who have different theological views and political views than me.

[00:40:04] I want to grow in that. And when I hang out with young people and hear their views of the text,

[00:40:09] I think it's beneficial. I think when Larry Osborne brought Chris Brown on staff,

[00:40:14] it's, it knocked me out. I'm not used to a pulpit, a pastor saying, here's my pulpit. I want

[00:40:19] to share it with a younger man because I realized that my voice isn't going to reach younger families.

[00:40:24] So I, I personally admire that. And as far as having women, older and younger women in the room,

[00:40:30] I mean, they're not telling the pastor what to teach, but, but they certainly are speaking into,

[00:40:35] this is what I see. So that when the congregation gathers that, that, that message is, is just

[00:40:43] refined a little more. So I great, I greatly appreciate that.

[00:40:47] The only lightning thoughts I have would be pros and cons. I think the pros would be

[00:40:51] being able to, maybe some of the weaker teachers would be learning at the same time that they're

[00:40:56] sitting at the table, um, with seasoned pastors could be a great mentoring. I think on the con side,

[00:41:03] it would be very laborsome. And I think maybe limit the pastor from shepherding his own flock,

[00:41:09] because we're so into this like schedule, because you're talking about multiple campuses.

[00:41:13] So that could be some of the cons. I know for my husband, he doesn't really know where he's going

[00:41:18] to be. So planning out the preaching schedule might be, um, a difficulty in that situation. But I think

[00:41:25] more so just allowing the pastor to, you know, maybe come alongside. I think there's pros and cons. I just

[00:41:39] wanted to, uh, in case I didn't, the other pastors and leaders in the room should be deputized to help

[00:41:47] with the small group strategy in that meeting. So it doesn't have to all be preaching. It could be

[00:41:53] they're writing small group questions for the sermon based small groups, which can be very beneficial.

[00:41:58] I just didn't know if I said that. I'm sorry. I'm anal.

[00:42:03] All right. Ending, ending with the bang. All right, guys, thank you so much. Really appreciate,

[00:42:09] um, the opportunity to learn from you. All right. Well, thanks for listening all the way to the end.

[00:42:16] I, yeah, I, I trust that you were benefited by, uh, Brenda, by Brian, by Alan and by Danny. You know,

[00:42:24] we have a podcast and audio podcast that you're listening to right now. We also have a YouTube channel,

[00:42:30] uh, that YouTube channel features, um, sometimes short clips, uh, and sometimes full episodes.

[00:42:37] And this week you can find this whole complete multi-camera high definition video on our YouTube

[00:42:46] channel. So be sure to find us on YouTube. Even if you're not going to watch the videos, just like,

[00:42:54] go give us a follow and just like drop some thumbs up randomly. I think I I'm told it helps

[00:43:00] the algorithm. And I know there's preachers all over the world in Africa, in Europe and Asia,

[00:43:07] South America, North America, and they're on YouTube. And I want to help this type of content

[00:43:13] to come across their screens and maybe make a bit more difference in their lives. So you could do that

[00:43:19] by just throwing us a few algorithmic bones by leaving some comments, leaving some thumbs up,

[00:43:28] subscribing, and then the odds that it's going to come across somebody else's screen increase because

[00:43:34] of that. Hey, thanks for listening. Not only to the end of the panel, but the end of this rather

[00:43:42] long winded outro, uh, appreciate you guys so much, and I will see you next Tuesday.

[00:43:50] This podcast is a part of CGN Media, a podcast network that points to Christ.

[00:43:54] We are supported by listeners like you to help us create more great shows. Visit cgnmedia.org

[00:44:00] slash support.