Therapy & Helping Hurting People

[00:00:00] Hey friends, welcome to Better Days Podcast Season 8. Season 8 is a collaboration

[00:00:06] with my friends Dr. Casey Short, Dr. Stephanie Cain, Jason Cain and Bayside Church.

[00:00:12] We sat down for a series of conversations around mental health. We hope that

[00:00:17] these conversations help you to understand the intersection between mental

[00:00:21] health and following Jesus and we also hope that these conversations help you

[00:00:25] understand the major themes and trends happening around mental health currently.

[00:00:30] For more content from Better Days, check out our website Better Days FMLY.co

[00:00:37] Let's jump into this week's episode. I'm often asked Wesley how do I help people

[00:00:45] who are suffering? And I think that's a great question because it reveals an

[00:00:50] intent to learn and gain understanding a wisdom of how to be the right person for a person

[00:00:56] that's hurting or in pain. But I also think that many of us are flooded with anxiety

[00:01:01] and internal questions when we come along somebody in pain. It's not the most natural

[00:01:09] thing to engage with. Questions like, how should I approach them? What should I say?

[00:01:15] Will I say the wrong thing? Is it okay to text them or should I call them?

[00:01:19] Should I show up their house unannounced? How often should I check in with them?

[00:01:25] Maybe I'm a wrong person for this. A lot of people feel intimidated because they're not an

[00:01:31] expert or some people they may feel awkward because they have no idea what to say or how to engage.

[00:01:37] And most of us have never been taught wisdom and tools to navigate conversations and

[00:01:43] relationships with people in pain. So today I'd like to talk about one, how to help people in

[00:01:49] pain and then two, how to find help for somebody who is in pain. On the second question we're

[00:01:57] going to lean on you guys. You two are therapists, doctors, experts, people that I respect deeply

[00:02:06] and you're both very brilliant in what you do and you do it so well. It's a gift from God.

[00:02:11] But I'd like to start with how can a person gain wisdom and tools to help other people in pain?

[00:02:20] Probably the top question I get on a consistent basis around human suffering. So Jason,

[00:02:26] what are your thoughts as you just begin to think about that question?

[00:02:31] Yeah, well first of all, I love that people come to you and ask these questions because it

[00:02:34] demonstrates a desire to want to be there for other people to care for them deeply.

[00:02:39] So I think the starting place for this is have care and concern for people.

[00:02:43] That's great. Begin there. If someone isn't asking these questions in their believer,

[00:02:48] I would be concerned because we should have a concern or desire to bear one another's burdens.

[00:02:54] So I definitely think that looking to scripture to see what the believer's responsibility

[00:03:00] is to care for others is high on the list. If you want to just do an easy exercise, go on Google

[00:03:07] and type in the one another's in scripture and read the 40 or 50 that scripture requires us to

[00:03:13] love one another, care for one another, bear one another's burdens. In all of these things,

[00:03:16] I think scripture sets a foundation. But I also think that there are some resources and places

[00:03:21] you can go to to find out how to better care for people. And this might sound like a plug for us,

[00:03:27] but it is. Better days on your website. I think you provided a lot of resources over the years

[00:03:31] to help people learn how to care for others. Yeah, and I just recently wrote an article

[00:03:37] how to help people who are suffering. And it took me a while to think through this, but I thought

[00:03:42] what are primary approaches and secondary approaches that people utilize? They're like the

[00:03:48] fault responses to people in pain. The primary approaches are the most important ones. That's

[00:03:53] what our first response should be. And my list of primary approaches are this presence. People

[00:04:00] need presence. Show up when somebody is suffering. Let's say something real quick about showing up.

[00:04:06] When you show up, you don't even need an agenda. You don't even need to know exactly what to say.

[00:04:11] Showing up is literally just being present with the person. And that can be intimidating because

[00:04:16] you think you know, oh my gosh, they just experienced loss if I go to the house. What do I do? Just be

[00:04:21] there. Be present. Literally be present. That is the entire command. Yeah, just be there. The second

[00:04:28] is understanding. Presence is the most important relational need people need who are suffering,

[00:04:34] but understanding is second. So when you show up, don't show up with answers, solutions, show up

[00:04:42] with the ability to learn from their vantage point. What are they going through? Where are they at

[00:04:47] in their experience? What do they want to disclose and share with you in that moment? And then I think

[00:04:54] part of the wisdom of understanding is learning to listen, learning to really sit and understand

[00:05:02] what a person is going through. Through listening. Listening is the most important form of communication.

[00:05:11] The most common form of communication is talking. Like we always want to talk.

[00:05:15] The best thing that you can do to somebody in pain is not talk a lot. Job's friends didn't talk for

[00:05:21] two verses and they comforted him. And then they talked for like 30 some chapters and they

[00:05:29] made worse the situation for Job. Can I also say with a desire to help is also a willingness to

[00:05:37] make mistakes? You will not get this perfect. You're not a trained professional, even trained

[00:05:41] professionals mess it up. I remember I was doing my first couple of hospital visits and I learned

[00:05:45] some valuable lessons. You don't walk in the hospital and say, hey, how's everybody doing today?

[00:05:49] That's not the question that you want to ask or the energy that you want to bring into the room.

[00:05:53] So it's a learning process too. Yeah, so true. And then the fourth one is love. Love is the foundational

[00:06:01] element that people desire in any human relationships. Particularly in a moment of suffering or pain.

[00:06:08] You want to be loved. You want to be loved right where you're at. And I think that's what God does

[00:06:13] to us. God is love, but God loves us where we're at in moments of pain and suffering. And I think

[00:06:19] ultimately that's what people crave and need. Now those are the primary approaches, but not the

[00:06:24] normal responses. Okay. The normal responses are what I call secondary approaches. Secondary

[00:06:31] approaches, some of them do have value. So when I share some of this, I'm not sharing it to say

[00:06:37] this doesn't have value, but it's not. It shouldn't be the primary response to a person in pain.

[00:06:43] Some of these are funny if you laugh, that's okay. It's good to laugh. So here are secondary

[00:06:49] approaches that I have seen over the years, not only in my life, but particularly leading churches

[00:06:56] and people wanting to engage with hurting people within the framework of a church or Christianity.

[00:07:03] The first one is the teacher. The teacher wants you to be learning in your suffering, so they ask

[00:07:08] you questions like what is God teaching you or what are you learning through this experience? To them

[00:07:14] every experience of suffering is supposed to teach you a lesson while it's true that we

[00:07:21] that learning has value. That's not necessarily what somebody needs in a moment of pain or suffering.

[00:07:29] The second is the theologian. The theologian wants to explain the odyssey's, which is like reasons

[00:07:33] God allows suffering and evil. And they like to wax eloquent explaining the theological purposes

[00:07:39] behind suffering in this world. I would say rarely does a person desire that in a moment or a

[00:07:47] season of suffering. The third is the cheerleader. The cheerleader wants to cheer you up and

[00:07:53] pain an optimistic picture. They say things like you got this, God is bigger than your suffering

[00:07:58] or consider it joy what you are going through. This is interesting. They often secretly find

[00:08:05] pain and suffering uncomfortable. So they'll try to find a solution or an optimistic element for you

[00:08:13] because they don't want to sit in your pain with you. The next one is the healer. The healer wants

[00:08:20] you to be supernaturally immediately healed from your suffering. They bring faith, healing oil

[00:08:25] and ideas about God as a great physician. What is often lacking in the healer is a wisdom to

[00:08:31] acknowledge that God may not heal that person of their pain and the awareness of the damage

[00:08:37] that false hope can do to a person spiritually. There are a lot of people in our lives that

[00:08:43] they're going to walk through a lifetime of a particular suffering. We don't want to paint an

[00:08:49] optimistic supernatural. God is going to heal everybody picture because that's just not the reality

[00:08:55] for the majority. Think about being a pastor, only a minority of people in our experience and

[00:09:01] ministry have ever been supernaturally healed. The majority of people, they have to learn to navigate

[00:09:08] that with God and with community in a healthy way. Another one is the resource. The resource

[00:09:15] comes with books, blogs and pamphlets. Everybody knows this person. They have content for you to read

[00:09:20] that will help you navigate what you're going through while content is helpful at various points

[00:09:26] of suffering. Content is not the dominant need. People need to know that. Another one is the influencer.

[00:09:33] The influencer wants you to see a bigger picture of how God may use your suffering. For them,

[00:09:37] suffering has a greater purpose like winning people to Jesus or sharing your story to influence others.

[00:09:42] All of that may be true. However, a person's suffering is usually not looking for some grand plan.

[00:09:49] Right. That's not their relational desire or need. That's not the sole longing that they have

[00:09:56] in that moment. Another one is the advice giver. The advice giver wants you to help or wants to

[00:10:02] help you resolve your suffering naturally and practically. They come with diatips, medical

[00:10:08] advice and essential oils. They have figured out how to help someone with your exact condition.

[00:10:13] They are the doctor you did not ask for and they have the solutions to believe your pain.

[00:10:20] What a lot of people don't understand is that oftentimes when a person is suffering,

[00:10:25] they will ask for the help that they need. They're already investigating and learning and going down

[00:10:34] different paths. They don't need 20 people in a community to come to them with different advice of

[00:10:43] how they need to solve their exact problem. Most of the time, we don't actually know the inner

[00:10:50] longings or the consternation inside of a person who is suffering. The advice giver is not necessarily

[00:10:59] the wisest response to a person in pain. A couple more, the projector. The projector is insecure

[00:11:06] and uncomfortable around suffering so they project their inner turmoil through talking a lot

[00:11:12] or quickly entering and exiting the situation. It is wise to evaluate your own inner fears,

[00:11:18] anxieties, discomforts or insecurities around suffering. That way you can recognize them before

[00:11:24] you act out of them in a situation where a person needs you to be fully present in a non-anxious

[00:11:29] and caring manner. I feel like this is really important because projection happens a lot when we're

[00:11:36] relating to people who are suffering. We have our own inner dialogue that's happening

[00:11:41] and really, I think maybe to deconstruct the intimidation a little bit, people just want you.

[00:11:51] We sometimes provide the inciting of anxiety because we think we have to have some profound

[00:12:03] saying or solution. They just want you. That's all they need, just sit with them. Just be by their

[00:12:09] side. Just let them process at their own pace. Then the final one, I find no value in, it's the judge.

[00:12:17] The judge is someone who thinks that there is a just reason why you are suffering. To them,

[00:12:22] you have done something wrong or you're living out a hidden reality that you're being judged for.

[00:12:27] They may ask you deep probing moral questions or make comments like you reap what you sow.

[00:12:32] This approach to suffering is deeply damaging, relationally, emotionally, mentally and spiritually.

[00:12:39] And I would recommend stay clear from this approach. It happens far too often.

[00:12:45] This is what God rebuked Job's friends around. They had a wrong theology of suffering and they had a

[00:12:50] wrong theology of God. And so we should never look at somebody suffering and say, there must be

[00:12:57] a reason behind this spiritually. You must have done something wrong. Stay clear of that.

[00:13:03] And I would just say my suggestion and I'd love to hear from you guys after I've read that list,

[00:13:08] your response. But I would say go for the primary approaches every time.

[00:13:14] And wisely think through some of these secondary things that have value.

[00:13:20] But don't enter into the relationship with those secondary approaches.

[00:13:24] It's very good. Very good.

[00:13:26] Oh, good. So good. I really appreciate you sharing all of those

[00:13:31] different archetypes in a way because I can imagine that all of us listening and even all of us

[00:13:35] talking right now can recognize some of our own tendencies when we're sitting with someone in

[00:13:40] pain. And so perhaps a starting point as you listen to all of those different forms of

[00:13:46] responding is to think through, ask yourself this question. What are my, what are urges do I feel

[00:13:53] to respond when someone's in pain? Do I have the tendency to cover up the pain with my positivity?

[00:14:02] Do I have the tendency to look for all of the problems of the person in pain and to be

[00:14:07] critical? Kind of listening back over all of those different forms of responding,

[00:14:12] those secondary responses and asking yourself the question, what fits with my tendencies?

[00:14:20] Because it may be a helpful process in just starting to build insight. And that secondary question

[00:14:25] that may be helpful to ask is, you know, what's underlying that tendency? Like what might I be

[00:14:33] afraid of? What am I uncomfortable with? How does that uncomfortability help or hurt me? And just

[00:14:40] get curious about your own natural dynamics and relationships because oftentimes we come in

[00:14:47] wholeheartedly wanting to help. And when conversations or moments of vulnerability don't go the way

[00:14:54] that we planned, there's grief on the other side and confusion of wait, that's not the outcome I

[00:14:59] wanted. That wasn't my intention. So maybe the starting place is getting curious, starting to

[00:15:03] build insight about yourself. Yeah, I love that. What are your guys' thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think

[00:15:10] that this, your approach is reflective of what your relationship is with pain and what is your

[00:15:19] relationship with providing self-care to people. And I wonder if it's a, if it's two approaches

[00:15:25] to your point. Just being curious about, okay, what's underlying that? Is there something along the

[00:15:31] lines, some belief system that has developed about myself or about pain that is motivating or

[00:15:38] influencing my tendency towards a particular approach? Also, it could be what is it that,

[00:15:49] how is it that that approach has served me? Is it some way of, am I pulling from tools that I feel

[00:15:59] like it's served me and recognizing that that it could be unique to you and helpful to you.

[00:16:06] And then again, recognizing this person isn't individual and be curious about yourself but be

[00:16:12] curious about them. I wonder what tools would be helpful to them or has been to them and coming

[00:16:18] approaching them also with a curious mind. Yeah, I think at that like base level just to de-mystify

[00:16:26] and de-intimitate this whole reality, people need the simple things. Yeah, see how I do it?

[00:16:32] Very much so. So if we can equip you with just that thought, like it's the simple things that are

[00:16:38] the most valuable and important when you're relating to somebody in pain and suffering, go there

[00:16:44] every time and you will do the right thing. And this is intimidating and there are anxieties that

[00:16:56] we all feel and there are inner things that we need to be curious about but go for the basics.

[00:17:05] Like we say in sports, the fundamentals. Yeah, that's the foundation that you build everything

[00:17:11] else upon and the fundamentals you got to stick to those in every year of life and particularly

[00:17:17] in this area of connecting with people who are suffering. I'd love to transition this conversation

[00:17:23] from how can I help people who are processing through pain to how can I find help in my pain?

[00:17:32] You two are therapists and doctors and I would love for you to answer a couple questions. One,

[00:17:39] let's start here. What is therapy? I can get us started. So therapy is it takes many different

[00:17:49] forms. So it kind of depends on the therapist that you're working with but therapy is provided

[00:17:53] typically by a licensed clinician and that could be like a marriage and family therapist. That could

[00:18:00] be a licensed professional professional counselor. That could be a licensed social worker, a clinical

[00:18:05] psychologist. It could even be a psychiatrist. A lot of people don't know that some psychiatrist

[00:18:09] offer therapy and then what you're going to expect is a talking style of therapy most often

[00:18:19] that is going to really be targeted towards treating the problems you're wanting help with.

[00:18:24] And the beautiful thing about it is if you find someone who is a good fit for you, you're finding

[00:18:29] someone with the specialty that meets your treatment needs or treatment goals. And what they're

[00:18:34] going to use is evidence-based practices. They're, they're, it sounds so mystical. I know like we

[00:18:39] probably all have a picture in our mind of like, okay, so I walk into this room and it's all

[00:18:43] neutral colors and I like lay on a couch and there's like a person with a sweater vest on.

[00:18:49] And like that's, that's an image that a lot of us have a therapy and truthfully it's for most

[00:18:54] people. It's not like that at all. You could meet with someone who looks similar to you or who

[00:18:59] looks different than you, who speaks and in your language and the tools they're going to help you

[00:19:06] with have been researched and the tools they're going to use have been researched to actually alleviate

[00:19:11] the symptoms that you're experiencing. So therapy is more like a science applied in an art form

[00:19:18] to an individual's needs. And there are many different types of therapies that are utilized,

[00:19:24] but ultimately the important thing is that that therapy that is utilized within an individual

[00:19:29] is a good fit for them. Dr. Cain, what would you add to that? Yeah I would say that with

[00:19:35] people who are going through pain, going through a difficult time and they have the members of

[00:19:41] their community friends who approach them and they make mistakes, right? And we were just talking

[00:19:45] about that. Therapy is an environment that's less risky than that. It is more of a secured space

[00:19:54] with somebody who's specifically trained in this area where you can, you can take the risk

[00:20:02] of saying really hard things that you might feel uncomfortable saying to other people where you

[00:20:07] wonder how will this complicate my relationship if I share this with a family member or friend because

[00:20:13] there's this whole other relationship that you have to manage afterwards. Whereas in the therapeutic

[00:20:18] environment, the purpose is for you to say it knowing that that is not going to complicate the

[00:20:24] relationship with your therapist because your therapist is there for the purpose of hearing

[00:20:29] these types of things. So it's an opportunity there to take those risks which could then alleviate

[00:20:35] some of the pressure that you may feel that come up for you with the other people in your lives

[00:20:40] and allow there to be less of a need there and maybe even some more grace because

[00:20:47] people were just, you know, talking about these, some of these approaches are pretty funny

[00:20:51] of what people will do to try to help and you're receiving it and it can get, it can be very

[00:20:56] fresh, a very frustrating experience for you to know that you have this need and people are falling

[00:21:01] short. But if you have that need being met in a secured environment that gives you a higher rate

[00:21:08] of meeting your expectations, then you're more than likely to accept people for their limitations

[00:21:15] and even be willing to communicate to them. No, that's not really what I'm looking for,

[00:21:19] what I'm looking for is this from you and being able to still maintain those relationships

[00:21:25] even if it starts off a little bit rocky but the therapeutic process is an opportunity to take

[00:21:30] some risks. Yeah and the gift of it is that it's a completely confidential space as well so

[00:21:37] you know, all of these conversations that are more risky with people outside of that therapeutic

[00:21:42] relationship, that information could get shared with other people but what you're talking about in

[00:21:47] a therapy session is protected both legally and ethically. We'll never be shared with anyone

[00:21:53] and then you also have a very real relationship, a relationship with professional boundaries but

[00:21:58] the therapy relationship is real, the person you're working with cares and you build a dynamic

[00:22:03] and this real relationship, the entire goal of it is helping you. And there's not really another place

[00:22:11] in most people's worlds where that's the case, most the time the relationship,

[00:22:15] the goal is for both people to experience health for them to be this reciprocity.

[00:22:21] Therapy is different and that you're really really focused in on the challenges

[00:22:26] that you're working through, the pain you're trying to heal from, the treatment goals that you have

[00:22:30] and that other person's entire focus and priority is your well-being.

[00:22:35] When should a person see a therapist?

[00:22:39] When you start noticing areas of your life are being impacted negatively,

[00:22:46] important areas of your life so whether it's your family, friends, work,

[00:22:51] when you're seeing your ability to live, love, laugh and work being impacted and there's barriers

[00:22:57] related to that, that's when you should seek therapy.

[00:23:01] Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think through like four different

[00:23:07] dees when helping people assess whether it's a time for them to reach out for help or not and

[00:23:14] the first one is distress and that's really speaking to like how much emotional pain is someone in?

[00:23:21] Are they slightly frustrated or disappointed on a day or are they experiencing deep sadness

[00:23:27] or numbness or overwhelm feeling very frightened or terrified?

[00:23:34] And then after distress I'm looking at disruption. Are the thoughts they're having,

[00:23:41] the emotions they're having, the actions they're taking, what's occurring in their relationships

[00:23:46] is it causing disruption in their life and then I think through dysfunction

[00:23:51] is the disruption and the distress that's occurring actually starting to interrupt what Dr. Kane said.

[00:23:57] My ability to live, to laugh, to love are these important things to me now being blockaded

[00:24:03] where I'm experiencing even more distress. I feel like I can't get my work done at the workplace.

[00:24:08] I feel like I'm not able to connect with my partner or my best friend. I notice myself isolating

[00:24:13] and then the last piece is duration. How long has this been going on for? Is it one really

[00:24:19] awful horrible day or is this something that's been going on for two or three weeks because if we have

[00:24:25] the distress, if we have disruption, if we have dysfunction starting to happen and it's been going

[00:24:31] on for a while, that is a great indicator that it is time to ask for help and that you benefit

[00:24:36] from some additional support. Yeah, those four days are really helpful. So there's a sea of

[00:24:42] therapists. I mean, if you Google, you know, psychologist, counselor, therapist,

[00:24:48] it's overwhelming. How do you enter into that relationship? What are some tips? Like how do you find

[00:24:54] a good therapist that works for you? Well, there are, you know, practically speaking,

[00:25:00] there are websites that actually do that work where there's filters put in place.

[00:25:06] There are, and Dr. Casey mentioned a couple episodes ago, psychology today is really popular,

[00:25:11] good therapy is really popular. Going through your insurance, if you're using your insurance

[00:25:16] and getting a list of which therapists are within their network, those are ways that you could narrow

[00:25:23] down the sea of therapists that are available to you. One thing that I have to be honest with you,

[00:25:30] what's happening right now in time is the, the profession is being deeply impacted, which means

[00:25:35] the response rate to people who are seeking help is pretty long, longer than we'd like it to be.

[00:25:41] And there's a lot of work that's being done to get people trained and to get people who transfer

[00:25:46] to different states to become licensed quicker. There are things that the profession is trying to

[00:25:51] do to meet the need, but in the meantime, what I really want to say is be patient. Don't lose hope,

[00:25:59] don't get discouraged, plug through it, even if there's a long response, keep reaching out

[00:26:06] to different therapists until you find one that gives a quicker response because it really is going

[00:26:10] to be easy to get discouraged with the process. So I just want to be honest about what that experience

[00:26:15] is going to be like. But yeah, those are the tools that you could use and then you actually get

[00:26:20] to ask yourself what is it that you're looking for in a therapist? Well, who can you relate to

[00:26:26] and identify with? Is it your particular gender, ethnicity? Certainly you want to look for people

[00:26:33] who have specific training in the area that you're needing assistance, whether it's grief or anxiety

[00:26:39] or depression, etc. There's specific training for all of these areas that therapists will actually

[00:26:44] indicate in their bio so you know that they are trained in that area. You want to make sure

[00:26:50] the person is licensed. There's a lot of people who are providing care but aren't necessarily licensed

[00:26:55] or trained in that area, so you want to be careful with that. And then I also want to acknowledge

[00:27:00] another barrier which is the financial barrier that can come into place. It can be quite expensive

[00:27:06] to seek therapy. However, there are resources, there are community organizations that exist in

[00:27:14] the area that provide either financial support or a sliding scale or something according to whatever

[00:27:21] resources you have available. Yeah, thinking about finding resources, I echo the empathy for anyone

[00:27:29] who's reaching out for help right now and having a hard time because our industry is so impacted

[00:27:35] currently. A few additional resources that I would share are if sliding scale is something that

[00:27:42] you're interested in, community mental health centers are a great place to reach out to

[00:27:47] and then additionally, I believe there is a resource called Open Path and that is a website

[00:27:55] and it specifically has profiles of clinicians who offer sliding scale spots. It's trying to make

[00:28:02] therapy more accessible for people. And when it comes to insurance, if you're looking for someone

[00:28:07] in coverage, you can call the number on the back of your insurance card. Additionally, there are two

[00:28:12] different larger platforms. If you want to look online at people's profiles, one is called ALMA,

[00:28:17] one is called Headway and using those two larger platforms, you can actually kind of look based

[00:28:23] on your insurance who's in network for you and kind of sift through therapist profiles and request

[00:28:28] free consultations, which not every therapist is going to offer but many do, which is pretty great.

[00:28:35] It means you could schedule three or four different free consultations and during that time, ask

[00:28:40] them questions that are going to help you get a feel for what's their personality like,

[00:28:45] what's their training, what's their specialty, do I feel comfortable with this person so that you

[00:28:50] feel the sense that you're making an informed choice about your care. Some questions that may be

[00:28:55] helpful to ask is you can ask about their theoretical approach, how am I going to know if I'm

[00:29:02] making progress? What type of coping skills do they use if you're really wanting anxiety help or

[00:29:11] you're really wanting help with depression? If it's trauma work, there's a variety of trauma therapies.

[00:29:19] So it may benefit you to look into different trauma treatments and then ask the therapist what

[00:29:24] treatments they're choosing to use, make sure it's aligned with what you're wanting for yourself.

[00:29:27] For example, some people really want treatment through an approach called EMDR, so it may be helpful

[00:29:33] to look for someone who offers that specific approach. But those questions are a few examples.

[00:29:38] There are many others that we could talk about if you're looking to find help for your child,

[00:29:43] it'd be really helpful to ask the therapist to what degree do you involve parents and how will

[00:29:47] you involve us? To make sure that's aligned with the values of your family.

[00:29:52] Very good. This is really helpful. I believe we all have seen therapists and therapy for me

[00:30:02] at a point in my life when I needed to work through a lot of my childhood trauma was instrumental

[00:30:12] in my healing process. I am so grateful for my therapist and so we value the work you guys do.

[00:30:21] We're so thankful to be on this podcast with you. I know you're married but I'm just on a level

[00:30:29] of helping people, God gifts people to help people. And God has gifted both of you and we so value

[00:30:36] the work you do and we so value the profession. And better days is pro therapy.

[00:30:42] And we believe that God can use it to bring deep healing and transformation and help to a person's

[00:30:49] life. So if you're at a point where some of those four Ds or some of the explanation that you gave

[00:30:56] as well, will you realize that you need to seek out therapy for yourself? It is good. It is healthy.

[00:31:05] And it can be life changing and we encourage you to take that next step and find a therapist

[00:31:11] that works for you. And that may mean, you know, a few consultations like you talked about but

[00:31:17] it literally from my personal story can change your life and we're thankful that God gives

[00:31:26] people to people to help people. Well, this is the end of this episode. So grateful that you

[00:31:32] joined us today, believing for better days ahead for you. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:31:38] This is the final episode of season eight. If you found these episodes helpful,

[00:31:43] we would love for you to help in spreading the word about Better Days podcast. You can send a

[00:31:48] link to a friend sharing your social channels and ratings and reviews help us to reach more people.

[00:31:55] We appreciate all the support. You can find more resources at betterdaysfmly.co. Thanks for

[00:32:03] listening to this season. There are Better Days ahead.