This episode gives you a breakdown of the any three model for evangelism. This method, developed by Mike Shipman, is designed for sharing the gospel in Muslim-majority contexts but can be applied more broadly. Dive into what the Any Three method entails, including its five steps: getting connected, getting to God, getting to lostness, getting to the gospel, and getting to a decision. The discussion covers the theological basis for the method, tackling obstacles in evangelism, and the importance of presenting the gospel in a straightforward, conversational manner. Listeners will also learn the story of the first and last sacrifice, a tool within the Any Three method to articulate the gospel effectively. Whether reaching across the street or across the globe, this episode equips you to share your faith confidently.
00:00 Introduction to Base Camp Podcast
00:29 Overview of the Any Three Evangelism Method
02:36 Historical Context and Development of Any Three
05:39 Practical Application of Any Three
09:49 Steps to Implement Any Three
10:09 Getting Connected: Building Initial Rapport
12:55 Transitioning to Spiritual Conversations
20:15 Addressing Sin and Lostness
27:04 Presenting the Gospel: First and Last Sacrifice
27:11 Engaging Conversations with Muslims
27:47 The Story of the First and Last Sacrifice
28:19 Sharing the Gospel with Non-Muslims
29:23 Effective Evangelism Techniques
31:28 Encouraging Spiritual Conversations
33:33 Overcoming Evangelism Challenges
35:47 Adapting Evangelism for Different Contexts
38:28 The Importance of Sharing the Gospel
44:43 Conclusion: Participating in God's Work
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Welcome to Base Camp, a podcast put out by All Things All People, which
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equips you to take the gospel to the darkest places and the least
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reached people all around the world.
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My name is Mikel Collins.
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In this episode, I sit down with Jeremy Jenkins, the founder
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of All Things All People,
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and we discuss an evangelism method called Any Three.
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So by the end of this episode, you should have a great understanding of what the
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Any Three method is and how to apply it to your own gospel conversations.
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So thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoy the show.
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Jeremy: so
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The any three method or model for evangelism, formulated by Most mostly
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by a guy named mike shipman, who he let a team who was engaging muslims
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in a Overwhelmingly Muslim country, and also one that was fairly hostile,
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towards the gospel it's called any three, because at a certain point
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in the evangelism strategy, you are.
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Hoping to be poised with the opportunity to ask one of any three questions.
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Usually any three is used in engaging, Muslims.
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you know, as you and I'll talk about, I think it's actually,
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it's used can go far beyond that.
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but yeah, so, so it's called any three because you're given the choice of
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asking one of any three questions.
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Shipman and his team came up with.
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Mikel: And so you're working towards a chance to work in one
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of one of any of these three questions, and what are the three
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Jeremy: So I remember hearing about this model.
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When I first got out of undergraduate and started working in church ministry,
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and started hanging around with like a lot of missionaries, who are
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engaging Muslims with the gospel.
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I think this model has been around since the nineties, maybe the early two
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thousands, maybe before that I might be very wrong, Shipman and his team
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found that getting to a point where you could ask something along the lines of.
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Are your sins paid off yet?
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when do you think your sins will be paid off or like on judgment day?
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Cause Muslims do believe in a judgment day.
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Do you know that your sin debt will be paid?
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And so those are the three questions in all honesty, it doesn't have to
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be one of those three questions, but you kind of see really, it's a three
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iterations of the same question.
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way you
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Mikel: just trying to make, asking the question of what, what about your sin?
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Jeremy: Yeah,
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Mikel: what's going to happen with your sin?
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gotcha, and this is, you'd say it's been around since the 90s
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ish, and started by a guy named Michael
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Jeremy: Mike Shipman.
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Yeah.
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And so in the study of missions, one of the more interesting things that's
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happened in the last, 20, 30, 50 years.
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Is there's been a lot of missiological study on what is the best way to reach
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Muslims, Obviously there was a lot of evangelism towards Muslims before 9 11,
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but then post 9 11, the Western world really became more, aware of what was
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happening in Muslim majority countries.
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And then likewise, the church really became probably more.
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Inclined to send missionaries And so out of that though, there was a
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big question of like, well, what's the best way to reach muslims?
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and you know, we can talk some other time about that, but all the way from
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like, you know, Questions like, is it permissible or wise even for what
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we call a Muslim background believer?
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That's something that usually like in mission circles, a Muslim who's converted
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to Christianity oftentimes is designated as an MBB Muslim background believer.
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which even that term is somewhat controversial in the study missions,
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but like even questions like what we call insider movements.
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So in some Muslim countries, there are missionaries who, You know, we'll lead
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somebody to Christ or, you know, I mean, even a national movement where some
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believers will actually stay in the mosque and, live out their life, following Christ
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in the mosque, and inside the culture with the hope that from the inside, it'll
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grow all the way to, the planting of churches and prominently Muslim areas,
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all that to say in the midst of all of that, any three, became a really simple
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and preferred model that to overcome the very obvious obstacles that like people
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face in any evangelistic situation, but especially one tour, like when you're
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In a place, in a country, let's say that is predominantly not Christian.
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you have a unique set of obstacles that somebody's going to face.
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And so Shipman and his team developed any three to make it easier.
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what I love, and this can kind of get us into the explanation
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of exactly what it is.
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Like the frustration that.
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That they faced and, and, we'll make sure to link to some articles.
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I think there's a book that Shipman wrote that explains this, but the Genesis of
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it was that they felt like they were spending so much time trying to figure
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out who is ready to hear the gospel.
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one thing that's interesting, I think we've talked about this in a past episode,
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like on Jesus and Isa in other cultures
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And specifically in, Middle Eastern culture, is they're very, very friendly.
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And they're very, very hospitable.
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And so missionaries like Shipman's team, who, Are in these, environments,
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like sometimes they really struggle to figure out like, okay, are
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they ready to hear the gospel?
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Because like, do I know the culture well enough?
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Do I know the language well enough?
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Am I good enough friends with them?
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Like, have I met their needs?
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Like all these things.
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And they sort of became, exhausted by this process.
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And so they just decided, well, Hey, Let's just start assuming that the Holy
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Spirit is, is like by the grace of God, preparing people to hear the gospel.
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So let's start sharing the gospel with as many people as we
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possibly
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can.
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Mikel: And
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Jeremy: Correct.
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Yeah.
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And it really, it's funny because like.
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I think once people start thinking that way, it really frees us
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up to feel like, okay, we don't have to till the soil, right?
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Like it's on the parable of the sower.
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Christ tells us like, you know, there's good soil.
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Then there's the rocky soil.
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Then there's the soil where the birds snatch the seed away.
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Then there's the soil where the weeds grow up.
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Really our job is just to sow the seed.
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they started just sharing the gospel as effectively and simply as they could.
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and when they would find someone who was receptive to it, that was who
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they then began to disciple, like further the conversation about Christ.
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If somebody was like hostile towards it or indifferent towards it, they were
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just like, okay, we'll move on, you know?
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And so out of that, the Any three model.
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Came about, which we'll talk somewhat, formulaically about it here.
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But the reason why I love it and I use it any chance I get, and then I've actually
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broadened my use of it outside of just Muslims, which I think Shipman, has said,
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like it can be effective for that is that the first time you hear it, it might
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seem somewhat like systematic formulaic, but it's actually a tool that's.
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really conversational and simple and comes down to just a few key
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questions that you're trying to lace into a conversation Naturally.
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Mikel: Yeah, that's what I noticed when I was reading the article that you sent
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me that kind of breaks it down is it's I was going through it and I do not
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have the experience that you do with evangelism and missions and things and
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I thought wow This feels like a just like a regular conversation that I would
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have thinking about walking through it
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Jeremy: I think what I tell people, cause I'm not, I say this a lot, like
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I'm not naturally a very good evangelist.
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I didn't grow up in an environment where evangelism was taught, really
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didn't start being taught and equipped on how to evangelize until
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I was already in church ministry.
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but what I've come to learn, and I try and tell people, it's like evangelism really
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is just like the ultimate Like learning the art of having conversation in a good,
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like having good conversation that goes beyond the surface, but then also learning
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how to, like, if we say that our faith in Christ and, the beauty of the gospel
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is one of, if not the most important things about us, then we would desire
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for that to be part of our conversations.
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Just like, and I say this a lot, it's like, Whatever my favorite TV
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show or whatever my favorite movie or whatever my favorite, like,
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I recently finished reading Lord
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and,
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and now have gone really, really deep in reading all
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this Tolkien stuff and all that.
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And every time I see you, we talk about
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that.
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, and so I think for people listening to this, who desire to be whatever
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become better evangelists, like it's really just learning how to have.
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Conversation that goes beyond the surface and learning how to listen well, but
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then learning that it's okay for this.
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Thing about you that you, you rightly proclaim is the most important thing
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about you to come to the surface and to not hide it and to allow it to
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become part of your conversation and the conviction that shipment and so
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many other missionaries that, you know, that I, I love and respect, throughout
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time, what they realized was like, People do want to hear the gospel.
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We have this picture of kind of like the God's not dead type evangelism where we
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think everybody is going to shout us down.
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Everybody's going to be angry.
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Very rarely does that happen.
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In fact, the most common reaction you're going to get is indifference,
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but more often than not, I think whether it's out of respect, kindness, or a
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genuine interest, people will want to know more because you're likely.
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Even here in the States where, Christianity is somewhat well known,
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you still are statistically most likely to be the only person who's
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ever presented the gospel to the person in a complete fashion, even
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if that person grew up in church,
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So yeah, so Shipman, they came up with this sort of model and method and
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they, they lay it out in five steps.
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The first step is get connected.
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and we'll break each of these down.
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The second step is get to God.
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The third step is get to lostness.
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The fourth step is get to the gospel.
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And then the fifth step is get to a decision.
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the first step is get connected in every story that Shipman tells,
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and you can, you can go and Google any three, and there's a number of
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websites that talk about this model.
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Is really what they're saying is like just have a conversation Like if this
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is the first time you've met this person don't be the street preacher
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who just starts with the gospel.
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but then also too, there's this sort of conviction that sometimes people
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will say, well, you really need to be good friends with a person before
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you share the gospel with them.
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Or you need to know them for a really long time.
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They need to trust you.
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And in the same sense, Shipman talks about well, how good a friend, how
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good a friend do I need to be a person before I can share the gospel with them?
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And so this step get connected is just like,
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Just have a normal conversation with the person like anybody else.
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Hey, how are you?
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How are you doing?
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where are you from?
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you know, I've said before, and it's not my quote.
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I've heard it numerous times, but you're only as interesting as you are interested.
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And so like.
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if you're like, let's say you live in, you know, I grew up outside Chicago, let's say
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I'm spending time in Chicago or something like that, and I'm waking up with the
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intention, like today, I want to find some people to just pray with and look to
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share the gospel, or maybe I'm at work.
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Maybe, you know, you and I work at a church, so presumably we
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don't have as many opportunities
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in
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our office to share the gospel.
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Well, the first step is just like be somebody that people like to talk to.
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So it's okay to talk about sports.
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In fact, it's actually preferred to talk about sports and music
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and food and culture, because that's where people relate.
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And so get connected, be friendly, be interested in them.
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Like everybody's favorite topic, whether they realize it is
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themselves, and, use people's name.
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You know, if I'm trying to talk to somebody that I've just met,
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And they say, Hey, my name's Mike.
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And it's like, well, Hey Mike, I'm really Glad to meet you.
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My name's Jeremy.
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just stuff like that.
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and so get connected.
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and like I said, that's a pretty simple step.
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I think most of us are actually probably fairly good at
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Mikel: are thing about American selves is that we're actually
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Jeremy: it's actually one thing that, I was just, kind of
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briefing one of our mission teams.
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That's going to be traveling internationally this summer.
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And one thing I tell every missions team that goes on a short term trip
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or really anybody who's traveling is that one thing that Americans
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don't realize about themselves is that we're actually quite friendly.
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Like we sort of have this negative image of ourselves because
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of like, there's obviously.
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Things that Americans aren't necessarily the best at, but we're really friendly.
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most people, when they walk down the street, don't smile and nod
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every single person they pass.
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And so in that sense, Americans are actually very good at small talk.
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We're very good at Hey, how are you?
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How's your day going?
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Like Think about the last time you talked to a waitress or a barista or a cashier.
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You usually don't just sit there in silence.
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Yeah, leverage that, you know, get connected.
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And then the more instrumental step, the second one, which is get to God.
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And this is where I think most people are going to struggle to
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begin to feel the nerve to do this.
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this is the idea of bringing up religion, bringing up beliefs and things like that.
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and it really is based around questions like, Hey, what do you believe?
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where do you go to church?
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Mikel: And you pointed out In the Jesus and Isa episode that that's something
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that is not common in america But is pretty normal in most other countries
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to just ask there's no taboo around talking about religion like there is
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Jeremy: here
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Yeah.
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if there is a taboo, it's not necessarily that you can't
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talk about it like it is here.
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It's more so like, you certainly need to be respectful and things like that.
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But what Americans, sometimes don't realize is that in our culture,
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religion is mostly a private choice.
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a lot of Christians, or Westerners in general, intentionally raise their
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children in hopes that they will pick whichever religion they like.
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so what comes of that is we live in a culture where I don't know
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what religion the person next to me follows if they do follow one.
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And even more so it can seem sometimes offensive to ask them, but in other
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cultures, Whether those cultures are overseas or like what we call a diaspora.
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Diaspora means dispersion.
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so like the United States is full of communities of people who is either first,
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second, third generation immigrants, or first, second, third generation Americans.
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So you know, presumably either they or their parents or their grandparents
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would have immigrated And in those cultures more often than not.
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Everybody's the same religion, or at least, one of a few, and in a
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lot of their cultural identity is really closely tied to what they
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believe to be true religiously.
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And so we can kind of feel a little bit free asking about somebody's beliefs,
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or even if somebody's uncomfortable with that, like even asking, like,
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do you go to a mosque around here?
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So you and I live near Charlotte, North Carolina, there's a predominantly.
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Arab part of Charlotte, so it's not a predominantly Muslim
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part of Charlotte, right?
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Not all Arabs are Muslims and Not all Muslims are Arabs.
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So there's a predominantly Arab part of Charlotte.
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Well, I've gone there, you know intentionally just to sort of
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pray through that neighborhood and look for opportunities and so
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In
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regards to like this step to talking to a guy who owns like a
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Lebanese grocery store Just asking like, Hey, is there a mosque near
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And
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he goes, Oh yeah, it's right down here on the corner, you know?
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And then I said, do you go there?
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And he goes, Oh yeah, actually I do.
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Or if he says no, you know, if somebody is sort of demonstrating to you through
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their body language or their tone, like, I don't want to talk about this.
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Okay.
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Then don't talk about it.
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But more often than not, they're going to go, Oh no, I go to the mosque over here.
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Right.
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So right away, like, okay, I know this person's a Muslim.
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presumably if you did step one.
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This isn't the first question you're asking them, right?
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Like, Oh, Hey, I really love this store.
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Like, maybe in this particular instance, there's a restaurant
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connected to the store.
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So I'm talking about the food.
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I'm talking about how much I love the food and Hey, how long has this store
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been here and man, I wish there was a place like this close to my house.
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Cause I have to drive an hour to get here.
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so it's quite natural then to say, well, Hey, tell me the most
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important thing about you, And so, yeah, the idea of getting to God.
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Is this second step.
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So in, once again, to broaden this outside of just Muslims, it
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can be used in any circumstances.
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I spent a lot of time talking to, South Asian, people and
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in the same notion is true.
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Like I can say, well, Hey, I've traveled to India or I've traveled to Nepal or
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something like that, you know, Like religion is really important there.
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like, how do you practice that being in a small town like you and I live
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Hindu temple and things like that?
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and, you know, it's people listening, , I know this might seem like gymnastics,
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but it's just like, look for a way to broach the subject, even if you do it.
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Inversely, which is you bring up your faith It's a great way for someone to
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bring up theirs if you bring up yours and so just approaching that subject and one
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thing that shipman recommends is even just being as bold to say like are you hindu?
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Are you muslim?
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Are you buddhist?
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Are you christian?
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You know, uh, especially if that person's given um sort of leeway in that
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Mikel: conversation
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Yeah.
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They just haven't started Clamming up and shutting down as soon as
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Jeremy: Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And then once again, going back to, that conviction that it's like, I am not
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going to qualify or disqualify my hearer
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on whether or not they're prepared to hear the gospel by how they have
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been in conversation about things that aren't the gospel, you know?
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So, ask yourself, what's the worst thing That will happen if I politely
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and gently bring up spiritual matters in a conversation with somebody that
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I've already connected with The worst thing that's going to happen is that
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they express a disinterest maybe Very rarely they get upset about it, but
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more often than not they're not going
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Mikel: to
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Yeah.
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Not if you do it
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Jeremy: Exactly right and also too once again, you're interested and this is
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where like, You know, and for somebody who's listening to an ATAP podcast, I
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mean, you can say I'm really interested in religions Like I've used that
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Thousands of times, you know what I mean?
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Because I genuinely am like, hey, I'm a christian But i'm really
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interested in learning about religions and I really prefer to learn about
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religions from people who follow
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them
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And man, like people light up when I say that i'm not respecting that religion.
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I'm not giving credence to it I'm just saying hey, I I
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like to learn about religions.
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And so
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Mikel: then you're not, you're not disrespecting Correct.
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The religion either.
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You're just Exactly.
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Honestly saying, I wanna learn more about
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Jeremy: Honestly saying, I want to learn about what you some form of fashion,
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like, Hey, in your religion, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven?
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And in my experience with Muslims, which I'm, I'm no expert in
00:19:01
sharing the gospel with Muslims.
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I'm, much more experienced with South Asians, but in the past year, like
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I've been doing it more intentionally.
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I find that the reason why this method is very effective with Muslims
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is because there is so much overlap between Islam and Christianity.
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When Muhammad, began to claim that he was receiving this revelation
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from a law, so much of it was based on the old and new Testament.
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I've been in experiences both internationally and stateside, where this
00:19:35
step of getting to God and getting to these questions about sin is preceded by
00:19:42
usually them when they say that they're Muslim and I say, I'm a Christian.
00:19:47
Usually it goes something like, well, you know, it's basically the same thing.
00:19:51
Yeah.
00:19:51
we're very much alike, and I have no problem kind of saying, yeah,
00:19:55
there is a lot of similarities, we both believe in sin.
00:19:58
We both believe that inherently there's a problem with humanity.
00:20:02
And then the question of like, well, so what are you doing
00:20:05
to get your sins forgiven?
00:20:08
Digs that well, even deeper to get to the heart of really what
00:20:13
we're trying to get to with the
00:20:14
Mikel: the gospel.
00:20:15
Yeah, and so that those are the three First three steps right is
00:20:19
make connection get to God and then What what about your sin?
00:20:24
Is that what is it?
00:20:25
Is that a third step
00:20:26
Jeremy: So yeah, so get to God is step two.
00:20:29
And get to lostness.
00:20:30
Is step three,
00:20:31
and if you're thinking about it as far as like these step one, step two, step
00:20:35
three, in getting to lostness, we want to address the question of sin because
00:20:41
if you ask somebody, well, what are you doing to get your sins forgiven?
00:20:44
They're going to tell you, right?
00:20:46
If they don't tell you then,
00:20:48
hypothesis here that we want to find the people that the Holy Spirit's preparing.
00:20:53
Scripture tells us like, Hey, if somebody doesn't receive the gospel, then just
00:20:56
kind of shake the dust off your move on.
00:20:58
in my experience, especially in the Islamic world, they're going
00:21:01
to tell you about the five pillars.
00:21:03
They're going to tell you about, giving to charity.
00:21:05
They're going to tell you about, Praying five times a day.
00:21:08
It's a lot.
00:21:08
And, the confession of faith and all of these things, being a good
00:21:12
father, being a good mother, so on.
00:21:15
And then.
00:21:17
We get to the any three, this is where the name comes from.
00:21:20
And this is step three, which is get to lostness.
00:21:23
Listen intently, listen,
00:21:26
, Charitably.
00:21:27
I guess you'd say, listen, not just to respond.
00:21:30
if they say something that doesn't make sense to you or say something
00:21:33
that I have never heard that before, like ask them a question.
00:21:36
But then at a certain point, the crux of the any three method is that.
00:21:42
After they have told you how they believe their sins are being forgiven.
00:21:47
You ask one of those three questions, whichever one's most appropriate
00:21:49
or your own iteration of it, which is so are your sins paid off yet?
00:21:53
Or when do you think your sins will be paid off?
00:21:55
Or especially if it is a Muslim, Hey, on judgment day, when you're
00:22:00
standing before a law, like, do you know that your debt is paid?
00:22:04
And in most cases, whether we're dealing with a Muslim or a Hindu or whatever,
00:22:11
if they have the agreement that.
00:22:15
There is sin and humanity is contending against sin, whatever that might
00:22:19
look like the Hindu concept of sin is completely and utterly different than
00:22:24
the Judeo Christian concept of sin.
00:22:26
But if it's there, then this question is most likely going
00:22:33
to be answered in the negative.
00:22:35
No, I don't know.
00:22:37
And in the Muslim, If they understand what the Quran teaches to be true about
00:22:42
sin and salvation and Allah and paradise, then they will say, no, I don't know.
00:22:48
I can't know because even Mohammed said he didn't.
00:22:52
so that's.
00:22:54
Where you get to the gospel step four, because then the beautiful
00:22:59
thing about like learning how to have this conversation around any
00:23:02
three is then you say, now here's the difference between our faiths.
00:23:07
very.
00:23:08
Helpful with a Muslim because you do without being
00:23:12
disrespectful and inflammatory.
00:23:14
You do want to say, no, we do not believe the same thing.
00:23:17
Like we don't believe the same thing about Jesus.
00:23:19
We don't believe the same thing about God.
00:23:21
So the way we live out our faith might sometimes look similar and we might
00:23:24
use the same names for the prophets.
00:23:28
The most operative things about our faith are quite different.
00:23:30
And so, so.
00:23:31
Like the way that Shipman puts it is, well, what I believe is different.
00:23:35
I know that my sins are forgiven.
00:23:37
It's not because I'm a good person.
00:23:39
Although I do try, I know my sins are forgiven because God himself has made
00:23:42
a way for our sins to be forgiven.
00:23:45
And this brings us into the, get to the gospel step.
00:23:48
So before we kind of talk about how to present the gospel in the any three model,
00:23:53
which there isn't just one universal way, but there's one way that I've found
00:23:56
helpful based off of what Shipman has found helpful, but to this point, right.
00:24:01
All this is, is just a conversation about
00:24:05
this person who's sitting with you and sin and what they believe about sin.
00:24:10
And if they do believe in sin, how are you going about seeing that problem
00:24:15
resolved?
00:24:16
And to this point, like my advice to anybody listening, who feels compelled
00:24:21
to try and have these conversations, it's like your job is to just listen.
00:24:24
It's not to argue.
00:24:25
Mikel: I think especially with early on, if you have not used to these kinds of
00:24:30
conversations, and maybe it's an American culture thing as well, I don't know.
00:24:36
when you are talking about.
00:24:38
The thing that's most important to you in the world, and you know
00:24:42
that the person you're talking to disagrees with you fundamentally, we
00:24:47
can kind of put up some defenses and can cause us to stop listening to
00:24:51
what the person is saying and start Thinking about what we are going to say
00:24:56
next to try and prove that we're right and make it into more of an argument instead
00:25:03
of a, this is just a person that I'm trying to connect with at this, moment.
00:25:08
Jeremy: A lot of evangelism too, and just mission work in general, also comes down
00:25:13
to what we might call like theological triage, which is like understanding.
00:25:19
Which things are worth disagreeing about like openly, you know, and
00:25:23
if this conversation is happening, at a bar or in an elevator, right?
00:25:28
Like it's very rare that it's worth arguing about, right?
00:25:32
If you're going into this saying, okay, let's assume that Shipman and
00:25:37
these other missionaries are right.
00:25:38
I mean, they've led hundreds of thousands Muslims to the gospel.
00:25:43
Assuming that they're right, that it's most effective to just look
00:25:47
for people who it seemed like, what we would say is a green light.
00:25:51
then if somebody starts throwing up these defensive arguments, well, you're
00:25:55
a Christian, so you don't understand this and this and this like, Hey, if you
00:25:57
want to continue the conversation, go for But that's not what we're looking for.
00:26:01
Like we're not looking to win debates in, in, in even more so here in the
00:26:05
United States, where honestly, by some segments of the population, evangelism
00:26:10
is seen as somewhat offensive.
00:26:12
If somebody, when you start asking questions about, Hey,
00:26:15
what do you believe in sin?
00:26:16
If they start throwing up these defensive things, like it's okay.
00:26:19
Like this probably isn't the person today that you can continue that
00:26:22
lovingly and gently giving an answer for the hope that is within you.
00:26:28
But understand, okay, I'm probably not going to lead this person to Christ
00:26:33
today and
00:26:34
that's okay.
00:26:35
So now it becomes more about, Hey, I just want to show this person that
00:26:38
like Christians lovingly, but be looking for the person who maybe is
00:26:44
interested in having this conversation wants to have this conversation.
00:26:48
so everything to this point, is getting to.
00:26:52
Getting to lostness, getting to Jesus.
00:26:55
and the way that Shipman, and his team kind of formulated this is what
00:27:00
they call the, how they presented the gospel in this step, right?
00:27:04
So this get to the gospel step is what they call the first and last sacrifice.
00:27:09
And, I'm only going to go over it just like briefly.
00:27:12
If somebody is really interested in this week, like I said, Mike and I
00:27:14
will link to some resources that would go more in depth, but basically what
00:27:18
they do is they tell the story of what the first and last sacrifice.
00:27:22
And so, once again.
00:27:24
especially in regards to Muslims, it's effective because it starts
00:27:28
with Adam and so like I was recently, and this is, we told this story
00:27:32
in the Jesus and Isa episode.
00:27:34
I was recently in a Muslim country having a conversation like this with a
00:27:38
Muslim, who I had become friends with.
00:27:40
And I was able to start the conversation with like, well, Hey, for instance, like
00:27:43
you guys believe in Adam and Eve too.
00:27:45
And he's like, yes, of course.
00:27:47
And so the story of first and last sacrifice goes essentially
00:27:49
like, well, then you remember.
00:27:52
that when Adam and Eve sinned and sin entered into humanity,
00:27:57
the first act of charity that God did for them was he sacrificed,
00:28:01
a lamb to make clothes for them.
00:28:03
In that in clothing them, he covered their sin quite literally.
00:28:07
And then you kind of talk through the old Testament narrative of
00:28:12
showing that like over and over and over again, sin required some sort
00:28:16
of sacrifice on behalf of humanity.
00:28:19
in regards to non Muslims, this is actually still true.
00:28:23
Even though there's not that biblical overlap with a Hindu or maybe with
00:28:26
a Buddhist, but usually, especially within Hinduism, like there still
00:28:30
is the idea that they might call them Pooja's there's an offering.
00:28:33
Like when I go to the temple.
00:28:35
to give offering to the gods, like I'm bringing something with me.
00:28:39
And so even if you're telling this story to somebody who's not Muslim,
00:28:43
while they might not believe in Adam and Eve, you can tell the same
00:28:46
story and say, Hey, we see that.
00:28:48
In God's laying out, history with humanity is that, there always had to
00:28:52
be an offering for sin in my faith.
00:28:54
And can tell the story about, you know, Abraham and his son.
00:29:00
when we're talking to Muslims, it's usually not helpful to say,
00:29:03
Abraham and Isaac because they believe that it was Ishmael.
00:29:07
So we usually just say Abraham and his son.
00:29:09
So that we, once again, we kind of do theological triage.
00:29:12
We're sitting out here having this.
00:29:13
Conversation.
00:29:14
Like we don't want the conversation to become a debate about
00:29:16
whether it was Ishmael or Isaac,
00:29:19
they agree.
00:29:19
And we agree that Abraham was called to sacrifice his son at the last minute.
00:29:23
God saw his obedience, gave him this Ram to provide this covering again and
00:29:29
culminating in Jesus is that Jesus comes and I believe, right, I'm not looking
00:29:35
for this person's agreement at this point yet, but I'm just saying, Hey,
00:29:38
I believe that the scriptures tell us that Jesus came and his cousin, John
00:29:44
the Baptist, who was like the last great prophet before Jesus, when he saw him.
00:29:50
He yelled out and said, this is the lamb of God.
00:29:52
Who's come to take away the sin of the world.
00:29:55
And Jesus, in dying on the cross as sinless, and as the son of God,
00:30:00
and as God, was that last sacrifice that covered our sin, and then
00:30:06
he was resurrected from the dead.
00:30:08
And in doing so is still alive.
00:30:12
And he ascended to God and now he's actually, testifying on
00:30:16
his followers behalf that his sacrifice covers their sin.
00:30:22
And so the story of the first and last sacrifice ends with me
00:30:26
saying, so I actually believe that my sins can be forgiven now.
00:30:29
And actually it starts and ends with that.
00:30:31
So like, so when someone says.
00:30:33
know, this is how I believe that my sins are forgiven.
00:30:36
You can actually say, we'll see, this is where the difference is because
00:30:39
I believe that my sins already.
00:30:41
And I know that I'm going to spend eternity with God in paradise.
00:30:45
and it's actually like the times where I've used this in that way,
00:30:49
like that can actually provoke a lot of interest to somebody.
00:30:53
So for a Muslim.
00:30:55
who their entire life maybe has had an undercurrent of like, am I doing
00:30:59
enough or a Hindu who maybe their entire life has had an undercurrent
00:31:04
of like, how many lives am I going to live in the cycle of some sorrow or
00:31:08
rebirth and reincarnation when they hear you say, no, I have a confidence
00:31:14
that comes from outside of myself that My sin is forgiven and covered.
00:31:20
And at the end of my life, there is nothing else I have to do.
00:31:24
Like that actually can provoke a tremendous amount
00:31:26
of interest from a hearer.
00:31:28
And so getting to lostness, you tell this story and, you know, honestly,
00:31:33
you can tell any story, but I think that this is really effective.
00:31:36
This story, because it really encapsulates the gospel completely.
00:31:40
There are other methods, and we'll probably do episodes on other
00:31:42
ways to share the gospel, but I really liked this one, especially
00:31:46
with people who come from a Muslim background or Hindu background where.
00:31:51
There is a belief in sin.
00:31:53
If you're talking to a Buddhist, then it becomes a little bit more complex.
00:31:57
If you're talking to an atheist or somebody who's like you're religious,
00:32:01
sometimes this can be not necessarily the best way to go about it because
00:32:04
there isn't that shared belief in sin, but the story of the first and
00:32:07
last sacrifice can still be really effective because that's just the
00:32:11
gospel.
00:32:12
Once again, operating with Shipman's contention that We're going to try
00:32:16
and find the people, the Holy Spirit's leading us to, but then also operating.
00:32:20
And this is where I think American Christians really need
00:32:22
to hear this and receive it.
00:32:24
Is most people have not heard the gospel.
00:32:28
if you share the story tomorrow of the first and last sacrifice with
00:32:32
somebody, and you could even say to a person listening to this podcast,
00:32:36
Hey, I was listening to this Christian podcast the other day and this guy.
00:32:40
Shared this story about the gospel.
00:32:42
And he said, most people have not heard it this completely.
00:32:46
Can I tell you this story?
00:32:47
And you tell me if you've ever heard it, I bet sometimes people like,
00:32:50
Oh, you know, and I, I, Mike, you've probably heard this too, but like
00:32:53
people like, Oh, I grew up in church.
00:32:55
I know everything about Christianity.
00:32:57
You're a kid's
00:32:58
Mikel: pastor.
00:32:59
Jeremy: You know what I mean?
00:33:00
Like, like hopefully the kids that
00:33:02
are growing up.
00:33:03
Yeah.
00:33:04
But let's just be real.
00:33:05
Like you're a kid's pastor.
00:33:06
I was a youth pastor for a long time.
00:33:09
I think I was a good youth
00:33:10
Mikel: pastor.
00:33:11
Jeremy: Your sister was in my youth groups.
00:33:12
Like,
00:33:12
I hope I was a good youth pastor.
00:33:14
Like, but
00:33:15
I am routinely surprised at some of the students that I've had
00:33:20
who later on expressed to me.
00:33:23
That they didn't hear something that I know I said, or that, or even more so
00:33:27
like that, I'm like, well, I thought I said that, did I not, did I not explain
00:33:32
that?
00:33:33
And so, uh, yeah, if you go to the person in the cubicle next to you or
00:33:38
the office next to you or whatever and say, Hey, I want to tell you this story,
00:33:44
you tell me if you've ever heard it.
00:33:46
I,
00:33:46
bet you they're going to say in some form fashion.
00:33:49
Well, maybe I have, but I've never heard it like that.
00:33:51
And, uh, and yeah, and it's, it's, it's truly amazing.
00:33:55
Mikel: And I think that, you know, I love that little tip.
00:33:59
It makes me think of.
00:34:01
Something similar I would do when I was working as a cabin director at a
00:34:05
summer camp, when the kids would tell me that they wanted to stay up past lights
00:34:12
out or curfew or something, or break some rule, I'd tell them, Guys, I can't
00:34:16
let you do that or I'll get in trouble.
00:34:18
You know, and it, which might not seem super connected, but it's like, It was
00:34:24
my way of showing them that I'm genuine.
00:34:29
I'm not just enforcing these rules to keep them from having fun.
00:34:33
Like it is true.
00:34:35
It is genuine and it puts it on somebody else.
00:34:38
And it's not me coming out and being like trying to make them do something.
00:34:41
It's like putting us on the same.
00:34:44
Level and in the same way your line of hey, I heard this Christian podcast
00:34:48
and they said that not many many people have actually heard this got the gospel.
00:34:52
Can I tell you the story and you tell me if you
00:34:54
heard it?
00:34:54
It's
00:34:55
like it's.
00:34:57
It takes away the, , I don't know, awkwardness or the, this, you feel
00:35:03
this pressure to try to come across as genuine, and, but you feel like you're
00:35:07
being disingenuous when you're, you know that the point of this conversation is
00:35:11
you're hoping to convert this person or
00:35:14
convince them of
00:35:15
Jeremy: that, Or you're worried that like they're gonna be like,
00:35:18
oh, so you think I'm a sinner?
00:35:20
Yeah.
00:35:20
You know?
00:35:20
Mikel: Yeah.
00:35:21
But it puts it on a whole
00:35:23
nother
00:35:24
Jeremy: oh man level.
00:35:24
Oh.
00:35:24
It's like, oh,
00:35:25
Mikel: is the situation.
00:35:26
The, you can't fake.
00:35:29
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:35:31
i'll, I'll tell, I'll, I mean, I'll tell you what, maybe we could we'll
00:35:33
clip this and put it on Instagram and send it out in the email.
00:35:37
Maybe this is the big thought experiment that we do, like Blame me.
00:35:42
You know what I mean?
00:35:43
like, Hey, I heard this go and read the story.
00:35:46
Go read first and last sacrifice.
00:35:47
If you tell this story to somebody and mind you, they don't need to be a
00:35:51
Muslim, if you're stripping it down to just the first and last sacrifice,
00:35:54
like they don't need to be Muslim.
00:35:57
If they go, I've heard that story.
00:36:00
You can go see, I knew, I knew that guy was wrong, you know,
00:36:03
but what's happened here.
00:36:04
Okay.
00:36:05
That person has heard the gospel.
00:36:07
Right.
00:36:08
And.
00:36:09
I don't have enough money to make a bet with every single person
00:36:12
who listens to this podcast.
00:36:13
but I mean, I would be willing to bet money, that you would see some
00:36:18
pretty cool spiritual conversations and that you might, like I
00:36:22
said, you might see people like.
00:36:25
Interested in following Christ or even, and this was taking it back to
00:36:28
Shipman, like the hypothesis that like, there are some people who are
00:36:33
ready to receive and follow Christ now.
00:36:37
And by introducing the gospel to them in this way.
00:36:42
You're giving them that opportunity.
00:36:43
The last step in any three is get to a decision and kind of his
00:36:48
suggested like bow to put on it is asking just like simple questions
00:36:52
like, Hey, that makes sense.
00:36:53
Doesn't it?
00:36:54
And, do you believe that, , and what he's trying to get at is, Hey, give people
00:36:58
the opportunity to follow Christ now.
00:37:02
Some people are going to go, yeah, that makes sense, but dot, dot, dot.
00:37:06
I don't believe this and this and this.
00:37:07
Okay.
00:37:08
That's fine.
00:37:09
we can have conversations about that.
00:37:10
When we talked about Jesus and Isa a couple episodes ago, like we talked about
00:37:14
how the next step if they expressed an interest or an agreement, but there was
00:37:18
a, but it's like, well, Hey, the answer to that question, I think is in the gospel.
00:37:22
Like, would you want to sit down and read that?
00:37:25
But there might be people who are like, Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
00:37:31
Yeah.
00:37:31
And
00:37:31
I want, I want what you have.
00:37:34
And then it's like, well, Hey, listen,
00:37:36
the
00:37:37
scriptures say that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is
00:37:40
Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you're saved.
00:37:44
Like, Do you believe that?
00:37:47
And you know, maybe, and this is where discipleship starts I tell
00:37:50
people, evangelism is actually easier than we think it is.
00:37:53
Discipleship is much harder than we think it
00:37:54
is because this is going to require like multiple conversations.
00:37:58
Right.
00:37:59
Um, but, but of course too, this is a person you met on the
00:38:02
street in a country that you're not from or something like that.
00:38:06
Hey, if the worst thing that happens is they accept the gospel and then never
00:38:09
see you again, like Got to work that out,
00:38:12
you know,
00:38:13
but, um, but yeah, so give him the opportunity to make that decision.
00:38:16
I tell people all the time, give people the opportunity to say no to the gospel.
00:38:20
Like most people who don't follow Christ, it's not that they said no to him.
00:38:25
It's that they were never given the opportunity to say yes.
00:38:28
And so, there you kind of have like that big picture of any three like these
00:38:32
five steps If you're interested in it, you can read all these resources and
00:38:35
all that stuff But for everybody even if you're listening to this and you're
00:38:40
like, I don't know like this sounds kind of like bull I don't know that it's
00:38:44
that simple this and this and this it isn't that simple I mean conversations
00:38:47
are hard, but it's not as hard as you
00:38:50
think.
00:38:50
it
00:38:50
Mikel: yeah.
00:38:50
And Jeremy's already given you permission to blame him for
00:38:53
Jeremy: a hundred percent.
00:38:54
a hundred percent.
00:38:55
Mikel: I
00:38:55
listen to this podcast.
00:38:56
I'm part trying to participate in this community and this guy wants me to.
00:39:01
Share the gospel.
00:39:02
'cause he says that people haven't heard it can, this might feel
00:39:04
awkward, but can we, can I share
00:39:05
the story with you,
00:39:07
Jeremy: Well, and what's funny is like, I use that, I use that
00:39:09
kind of thing all the time.
00:39:11
And, and it is genuine, like, you know, because like coming from
00:39:15
academia, I use that all the time.
00:39:17
I go, Hey, listen, I read this book.
00:39:18
Mikel: yeah.
00:39:19
Jeremy: And I, I read this, you know, thing about Islam or Hinduism.
00:39:24
let me ask you a couple of questions and just, you tell me what you And
00:39:28
like the answer to that is always, yes.
00:39:30
You know what I
00:39:30
Mikel: I mean?
00:39:30
Oh
00:39:31
yeah, you want,
00:39:32
Jeremy: you want to know more about me?
00:39:34
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:34
You know?
00:39:35
And I said, well, what do you think about this?
00:39:36
What do you think about that?
00:39:37
Oh, okay.
00:39:37
That's interesting.
00:39:38
You know, and then, you know, you pivot that to, well, let me tell you, this is
00:39:42
what I was thinking when I read that.
00:39:43
, and there is a sort of like deferred authority.
00:39:46
And I do think.
00:39:48
That in the American context, that is one of the things that keeps
00:39:52
people from sharing the gospel is they, they don't feel like they are a
00:39:59
worthy emissary to share the gospel.
00:40:02
Like, I don't know enough or my life's not put together enough or
00:40:06
well, what if they question me like, Hey, I know you're a sinner too.
00:40:09
And so we just don't do it.
00:40:10
And so.
00:40:11
If, if that helps you at all to say like, Oh, I was listening to this podcast or
00:40:15
I was reading this book or I heard this thing and I just wanted to see what you
00:40:19
thought of That's better than nothing.
00:40:22
That's much better than nothing.
00:40:24
I think I've said it too on the podcast, but like I've been thinking
00:40:27
about this quote a lot and I need to figure out if it was moody or Spurgeon.
00:40:30
I can't remember, but I think it was Spurgeon.
00:40:32
But in talking about evangelism, he was challenged.
00:40:36
Probably he gave these, he gave these huge altar calls like in hundreds
00:40:40
or thousands of people would come and inevitably he was questioned.
00:40:44
Like, do you really think that's the most effective way to do this?
00:40:47
You know, and his response, and it might be apocryphal, I'm going to find
00:40:51
out
00:40:52
was something along the lines of, I like my way of doing it
00:40:55
better than your way of not doing
00:40:58
And I think.
00:41:00
The church in the United States is full of every evangelism idea with very little
00:41:07
suggestion on how to improve it or, or what's the, what's your preferred way.
00:41:11
So I, if I come across somebody who doesn't like any
00:41:14
three, But they're doing it.
00:41:16
I go, Hey man, that's cool.
00:41:17
Like, I'm good with that.
00:41:19
Like your way of doing it is great as long as doing it.
00:41:22
If you're not doing it, you should absolutely not criticize
00:41:26
it.
00:41:27
You know what I mean?
00:41:28
Um, and so like, just, yeah, try Like I don't, I don't want to see, I don't
00:41:34
want to sound like a flippant, you know
00:41:36
what I mean?
00:41:36
Like give Jesus a try.
00:41:38
That's not what I'm saying, but like, like try this.
00:41:41
I a hundred percent will guarantee it will go better than you think it does.
00:41:49
Mikel: It is, connect, make a connection, just talk to the person, get to know
00:41:54
them, get to God somehow, find out what they believe about God, and then
00:41:59
I know the next one is about sin, what
00:42:01
Jeremy: is
00:42:01
it?
00:42:01
Get to lostness.
00:42:03
Yeah, so you're broaching the subject on sin in some capacity.
00:42:07
Mikel: Yes.
00:42:08
Get to lostness.
00:42:09
Then the
00:42:10
gospel.
00:42:10
What
00:42:10
is
00:42:11
it?
00:42:11
the
00:42:11
gospel,
00:42:11
Get to the gospel
00:42:13
and
00:42:13
then decision.
00:42:14
Get to a decision and give the, yeah.
00:42:17
Put the ball in their court where they have to either, yeah.
00:42:20
Say yes
00:42:21
Jeremy: what do you think of
00:42:22
this if say, I think that's stupid.
00:42:26
do you think is stupid about it?
00:42:27
You know what I mean?
00:42:28
Like, don't argue with that.
00:42:28
Well, I don't think it's stupid.
00:42:30
You know, it's like, no, like, well, what do you think is stupid?
00:42:31
I think it's stupid.
00:42:33
You know, somebody who's going to say, I think it's dumb to think that Jesus could
00:42:36
have been Oh, why do you think Right.
00:42:40
And then, right.
00:42:40
Like, this is, see, this is where I get really excited.
00:42:44
Yeah.
00:42:44
Like, cause I'm like, Oh, you're giving me permission to have a conversation with
00:42:48
you about like something really spiritual.
00:42:49
I go, listen, I'm going to blow your mind.
00:42:51
God does stuff.
00:42:52
Miracles all the time.
00:42:54
this is what I believe.
00:42:55
I believe this whole world is full of this merging of the
00:42:58
natural and the supernatural.
00:42:59
I actually don't think that the two merge.
00:43:00
I think that there, you know what I mean?
00:43:02
And so it's if there is an obstacle, don't stop.
00:43:06
You know what I mean?
00:43:07
Just ask, well, why do you think that Frank Turek, pretty well known
00:43:10
apologist, he, he's actually been on the podcast a long time ago.
00:43:14
He he's really well known for sort of formulating these questions of well,
00:43:17
how did you come to that conclusion?
00:43:19
What made you, what made you think that?
00:43:22
You
00:43:22
know,
00:43:23
and I, I find that those questions are really valuable because a lot
00:43:26
of people have these like operative beliefs and they don't have a reason.
00:43:32
They just don't like what you have to say, you know?
00:43:34
So I mean like, Oh, I don't believe it because of this.
00:43:37
Well, what makes you say that, And what you might find is like, they
00:43:40
don't know what makes them say that.
00:43:43
And so it's something that you can engage them on, you know, but yeah,
00:43:45
it'll go better than you think it
00:43:46
Mikel: And, something I want to clarify a little bit too, we've talked, uh, for
00:43:50
most of this episode we've been talking about Muslims and reaching Islam with
00:43:54
any theory, because that was kind of what it was originally designed for, and it
00:43:57
works really well for Islam because we know that there is overlap in what Islam
00:44:03
believes about God and about people.
00:44:05
Sin, that we have sin, and that's where we can, we can
00:44:10
get at least to get to lostness
00:44:13
in this process um, easily.
00:44:16
But it also will work with people outside of Islam.
00:44:20
It's, it's gonna be very useful, like you just said, most people in
00:44:23
America have not heard the gospel.
00:44:25
Especially in, we're in the Bible Belt, you know, they're, same
00:44:30
deal, where they're all at least gonna say, They believe in God,
00:44:34
for the most part, most people, no, everybody, yeah.
00:44:39
Um, so use it, you
00:44:41
don't have to use it
00:44:42
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:44:43
And as we, as, as in ATAP, we're, we're, we've, we've really begun in the last
00:44:48
year or two to focus almost exclusively on the States because the United States
00:44:52
is far less reached than we think it is.
00:44:53
And, you know, there, there are populations in the United States
00:44:59
that are overwhelmingly, Arab.
00:45:03
So like places like Detroit, Michigan, or the suburbs around it, if you live
00:45:07
in a big city, there is a neighborhood, multiple neighborhoods in your city
00:45:10
that are predominantly Arab and not that all Arabs are Muslim, but
00:45:15
the predominant religion in that neighborhood is going to be Islam.
00:45:17
And so, um, So yes, this can be effective, uh, certainly overseas.
00:45:23
It was developed overseas, but as we at ATAP seek to explore the darkest
00:45:29
places and least Reached peoples in the United States to engage them with
00:45:31
the gospel, um, this is not a tool that can be used exclusively overseas.
00:45:36
In fact, it needs to be used more in the United States.
00:45:39
And as Mike said, it doesn't need to be just used with Muslims.
00:45:42
I, I, I know it was developed for Muslims.
00:45:44
I know that it's most effective for Muslims.
00:45:47
But it can certainly be tweaked and modified, but then at the core of it,
00:45:51
what, like what we've referred to a couple of times now is like this sort
00:45:54
of this open ended challenge to just tell somebody the story of the first and
00:45:58
last sacrifice, which is just telling somebody the gospel, um, like that story.
00:46:04
Can make sense to anybody.
00:46:07
It doesn't need to be a Muslim.
00:46:09
And so, or, or somebody who agrees that sin is a problem, the gospel is beautiful.
00:46:14
It's the most beautiful thing has ever, ever kind of like
00:46:17
taken sight of taking hold of.
00:46:19
And so we want to operate on this conviction that we see Shipman and
00:46:22
his team operated on to develop this method is, is that, um, Holy
00:46:28
spirit is preparing somebody in your neighborhood right now to hear gospel.
00:46:31
And more than likely the that you share the gospel with might not have ever And
00:46:37
if you operate on those two things, then a lot of those fears and anxieties and
00:46:43
obstacles that we use to keep us from sharing the gospel begin to And what
00:46:51
becomes more important is I want as many people as possible to hear the gospel.
00:46:55
And I'm going to operate on an understanding that tells me God
00:47:00
has made a way for it to happen.
00:47:02
I don't need to contrive this situation.
00:47:05
I don't need to like, like be friends with this for three years before I can share
00:47:10
the
00:47:10
gospel.
00:47:11
somebody might accept Christ today, if we operate on those
00:47:15
convictions, amazing things will
00:47:17
Mikel: things happen.
00:47:17
Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:18
You don't have to
00:47:20
force it
00:47:21
to happen.
00:47:21
You just get to participate in what God's
00:47:23
doing.
00:47:24
Jeremy: exactly.
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