"Is God Actually a Human?"

[00:00:05] Hey and welcome to Basecamp. This is a podcast of all things, all people, where we exist to explore the darkest places in world views and equip Christians to engage them with the gospel. So that's the mission to Basecamp. We go out and explore the darkest places

[00:00:19] in world views and we seek to engage people in the darkest and most difficult places and we come back to places like this where we debrief where we share stories where we do teaching and where we do interviews and we put it out there. All in hopes that

[00:00:32] you too would go and explore the darkest places in world views to reach people in the darkest and most difficult places with the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. And so today's episode is actually doing just that. It's engaging with the question

[00:00:48] of who and what is God. It's specifically looking at it through the lens of the latter-day Saint view of who and what God is and what he used to be because as you're going

[00:01:00] to find out that plays into the conversation. And so I'll go ahead and warn you, this episode is going to take you pretty deep mentally because it's probably going to engage with some questions with some notions philosophically and logically. That probably aren't best suited

[00:01:19] for a podcast but honestly I find that we just need to put this stuff out there because most of us are not going to pick up textbooks. We're not going to take college courses on philosophy

[00:01:30] and logic. And so this might be the first time that you engage with these topics with these questions of where does everything come from? And our all answers to that question equal which they aren't. And so you're going to find out why. And so don't ever be afraid

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[00:04:11] to people who are doing the same thing and so with that we're going to dive into the question today of who and what is God and specifically is God actually a human. So let's go.

[00:04:37] I recently sat for a meeting with two young Latter-day Saint missionaries with a friend of mine and I reached out to them actually through the Latter-day Saint website where you can request a meeting with Latter-day Saint missionaries. I reached out just simply because I wanted to meet

[00:04:54] the missionaries that had been assigned to my town here in Western North Carolina and as we sat there it was probably the difference in dress code which is the first difference someone would have noticed

[00:05:07] but I imagine it wouldn't have been the last because Latter-day Saint missionaries have their standard uniform on. Chris White buttoned down shirts pressed pants and polished shoes and on the other side of the table I was wearing my standard uniform which is golf shorts, flops and a black

[00:05:22] t-shirt. We had sat there for an hour chatting about their two-year mission and how it had been going and the entire time I kept in mind what I always keep in mind when I talked to Latter-day

[00:05:33] Saint missionaries which is what I want you to keep in mind as well. They're young. Typically 18 to 22 they spend a little bit of time in Provo at the Missionary Training Center and then they're sent

[00:05:44] out for a two-year mission or in the case of young women oftentimes at 18 months. And my friend Jake and I had set up this appointment to talk about their belief in God and as I sat there and listened

[00:05:59] to them they did a tremendous job as most LDS missionaries that I've ever talked to do, presenting the standard stuff about what Latter-day Saint's believe about God, what they believe about Jesus and all of this comes from the four LDS canonical books which is the King James Bible,

[00:06:17] doctrines and covenant, the Prologue Great Price and of course the Book of Mormon. Their truth, their scripture, their revelations also based in the continued revelation that comes down through the presidents of the church who function as modern day prophets. And so

[00:06:33] what's interesting though is despite the fact that all of these different sources come into place is usually to someone unfamiliar with Latter-day Saint doctrine. These introductory lessons that missionaries do seem like the teaching found within Christianity it's almost impossible to find a

[00:06:51] difference unless you know what to ask. And so after they finish and you know we sit there and talk about it I asked them you know hey do you you guys aware that what you believe about God

[00:07:05] is really different than what we believe about God and the more talkative of the young men shakes his head yes he goes yeah yeah he basically says but everybody believes different things about God even different denominations within Christianity believe about different things about God.

[00:07:19] So yeah we believe different things about God than you guys. And so I shake my head and I'll be honest I'm thankful that they're even willing to entertain the notion that we have substantial

[00:07:30] differences but I continue on and I ask are you guys familiar with what Latter-day Saint's believe about Heavenly Father's past life in a difference sphere of existence. Heavenly Father is

[00:07:41] their term for God. And you know they kind of smirk and look at each other and it kind of tells me that there's probably no script for that question at least not the first meeting. And they

[00:07:53] say yeah we we definitely know about that but that's not something we talk a lot about and I say great let's talk about that then because I'm fascinated by it. And so I get up from the table and I run

[00:08:01] across the coffee shop to grab an applicant and I sit back down and before I do anything I say hey let me explain the difference in what you believe about God and what I believe about God the same way that

[00:08:11] I do to my students and to people who I teach about Latter-day Saint theology and you can tell me if I'm representing your belief well and they nodded and smiled and I began drawing on this napkin

[00:08:21] in the middle of this coffee shop and on the first side of the napkin I drew a point and a line extending out of it that represented God creating everything out of nothing and on top of that

[00:08:32] side of the napkin I wrote creation X Nehlo and explained that this was the position held by most Christians throughout history then I flipped the napkin over and I began to talk about the words of Joseph Smith

[00:08:43] in his teachings about Heavenly Father and his teachings about Heavenly Father especially from the King Fawlet discourse we were talking about here in a minute and the idea that he lived a

[00:08:53] past life as a faithful saint in a difference fear of existence after this life he was given the opportunity to become a God himself along with his wife and so I draw what looks like a

[00:09:06] tic-tac toeboard on the napkin and explain that presumably other faithful saints from that same sphere of existence would have been given the same opportunity and they too would be God's with their own spheres of existence to create and populate with spiritual children and I circle the tic-tac

[00:09:23] toeboard and said some people might actually use the word multi-verse to describe the system where there's different spheres of existence are different universes simultaneously existing with different gods over each one of them. I looked up and saw looks of a music bewilderment on their faces and I asked

[00:09:43] am I representing your belief fairly and one of the missionaries says yeah but you should know that a lot of that isn't necessarily official church doctrine and I smiled I said absolutely but it seems like it would be the logical conclusion of what the church teaches right

[00:09:59] and they nod and they say yeah I guess you could say that it's then I asked this last question I said awesome so here's the question if we could tear down the wall between our sphere of existence

[00:10:11] and another one and the Heavenly Father that we find in that universe is more perfect than the Heavenly Father that we find in this universe would you worship Him instead? And so as we dive quickly

[00:10:28] into just a basic, basic conversation and this isn't even really a conversation because it's one way you're just listening to me talk about what do Latter Day Saints believe about God and

[00:10:39] the question at the top of this show even is God human it has to start with developing a basic understanding of Latter Day Saints theology proper which is theology proper is the study of God

[00:10:53] and then LDS cosmology which is the study of origins in the beginning of all things where does everything come from? And so my you know Latter Day Saints friend the missionary who's sitting

[00:11:07] across for me now he's right one of the frustrations and difficulties of this conversation is that a lot of the a lot of the things that we know about Latter Day Saints doctrine are not doctrine at all

[00:11:22] because there's been nothing written about it in none of the presidents throughout time have necessarily addressed it in full. And so in my opinion sometimes that's used as a loophole in conversations like the one that I had with my missionary friends to say you know yeah that's

[00:11:40] that you know that might be kind of where this logically goes but because it's not church doctrine we don't want to get bogged down in that and so to start off this is why I think this conversation

[00:11:51] is fair and necessary. I don't think that a belief system that you hold, that you also have followed to its logical conclusions like that you haven't gone to the parts of your belief system

[00:12:07] that sometimes can take you places that you're not sure you're ready to go. Then if there are corners of your belief that you don't want to uncover that's a problem and within evangelicalism in Orthodox Christianity we have these same things you know I entertain questions from people

[00:12:28] all the time about the difficult parts of our faith things like the conquest of Jericho things like the Passover it's it's academically disingenuous or just disingenuous in general to not talk about these things especially when a non-believer asks us about them. So I think

[00:12:53] it's perfectly fair sitting across from you know a latter day saint who I have a relationship with to say hey is it okay if we follow the logical conclusions of your faith which really it's not

[00:13:06] even that it's not there it's just not like canon because all of this comes back to the words of Joseph Smith in the April General Conference of 1844 and now who Illinois what we call the King

[00:13:20] Fallet discourse this is a sermon that he gave where he began to reveal what he says God had revealed to him about his own nature and so he says these words God himself was once as we are now

[00:13:34] and is an exalted man and sits in throne in yonder heavens if the veil were rent today or tore and the great god who holds this world in its orbit and who upholds all worlds and all things

[00:13:47] by his power was to make himself visible I say if you were to see him today you would see him like a man informed like yourselves and all the person image in very form as a man for Adam was created

[00:13:59] in the very fashion image and likeness of God and received instruction from and walked talked and conversed with him as one man talks and commutes with another. Smith here in 1844 introduces what would come to be known as the doctrine of exaltation and eternal progression the idea that humans

[00:14:22] have the opportunity to become like God is because God at one point Heavenly Father was at one point as we are now and that's actually probably the best way to phrase this doctrine it comes from

[00:14:37] an early latter day saint leader named Lorenzo Snow he says as man is now God once was as God is now man may be and so just if we stopped here if we stopped here and you wrote down

[00:14:56] what historic Orthodox Christianity teaches about God and with a latter day saints believe about God and if we were to erase the titles over those lists and you were to apply the veil

[00:15:10] of ignorance to those sets of beliefs and somebody asked you are these to the same religion you would have to say no right one says that God is human that he has a wife that he is his flesh and

[00:15:25] bone that he's lived a past life as a normal human on a different sphere of existence and then the other says that God is spirit God is a mind if you would that he is pre-existent he is eternal

[00:15:40] that he does not have a wife and that he created everything out of nothing and so the two sides of my napkin that day in the coffee shop represent two differing views like hugely differing

[00:15:51] views not just different beliefs but two different belief systems on eternity past and Joseph Smith continues in the kingfall it discourse to describe that the way God created this sphere of existence this universe was not out of nothing but was that actually he fashioned and formed

[00:16:13] everything that exists out of matter and material that is eternal and that previous two his exaltation existed in a primordial chaotic state and so Joseph Smith actually explains that the matter itself had no beginning and can have no end and so Smith is suggesting that the

[00:16:37] Christian teaching known as creation of anything is wrong and unbiblical he suggests instead that it's matter that's eternal and exists in some sort of chaotic state until an exalted saint fashions into a newspaper of existence or universe and so the tiktok tow board that I described

[00:16:58] and in talking about what I'm drawing on this napkin and how really if you follow this system logically what you end up having is is actually something that once again it's not official church teaching but has been addressed by early church leaders namely Brigham Young Smith successor

[00:17:21] where he states how many gods there are I do not know but their never was a time when there was not gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same or deals that we are now passing through

[00:17:35] that course has been from all eternity and it is and will be to all eternity and so the theology proper and the cosmology of Smith and Young suggests that there's a past infinite

[00:17:48] regression of gods and worlds and all of these gods exist in the form of exalted humans having lived lives on past spheres of existence the world they created fashioned out of eternal matter these various universes exist apart from one another yet exists simultaneously so

[00:18:07] latter-day saint cosmology is a multi-versus system now that's not something that you're going to hear at the general conference in Salt Lake City but once again it's the logical conclusion of latter-day saint doctrine and in fact saints are beginning to address this notion especially as

[00:18:27] some secular cosmologists and physicists are beginning to be more more curious about the potential for multiverse systems in general and so there's actually a paper called eternal progression in a multiverse written by Dr. Kirk Hagen who's a professor of engineering and is also a latter-day

[00:18:44] saint and in seemingly if you read the article he seems to have a trunendous grasp not just on science but LDS doctrine and he suggests that the multiverse model might be an essential component

[00:18:58] of latter-day saint theology he says in a Mormon multiverse a being who progresses to Godhood brings about a universe for which that god has dominion to provide suitable worlds for their children the gods endowed their universes with the required physical properties to sustain life

[00:19:15] in Mormon theology God's exist simultaneously so separate universes coexist in the eternal multiverse and in a given multiverse epic each universe is the ensemble in the ensemble may be anthropomorphically characterized as a newborn a child an adolescent an adult or a senior citizen

[00:19:36] depending on the age the time that's passed since each universe's own big bang birth into the multiverse family the spirit children of the God of a given universe presumably must finish their mortal probation progressing to the degree of glory prepared for them long before their

[00:19:53] universe fulfills its purpose the children who achieve the highest degree of glory those who achieve Godhood eventually bring about their own universes and populate them with their children and the cycle continues eternally these are the words of once again uh Kirk Hagen what he

[00:20:08] basically saying is that in this multiverse system that seems to him to be the logical conclusion of latter days saint theology which I agree that is the logical conclusion is that God's exists simultaneously as he says in each universe that's created or sphere of existence might you know

[00:20:28] they all there's a whole infinite regression of them they're all different all these different universes are different ages but this the same thing is true about each one of them that they all

[00:20:37] had their own and he says big bang type birth so they all appear to be created out of nothing but they're not created out of nothing um that out of these universes come humans who then become gods

[00:20:53] and go to other universes and create out of pre-existent material something that appears to be a new universe and Hagen says the cycle continues eternally and so I know this is complex

[00:21:08] but it's important to note that this is right this is the type of thinking that's coming even out of the ranks of the educated latter days saint population Hagen likely represents a growing number

[00:21:21] of saints who are pleased about the growing popularity of multiverse models both in the field of cosmology and in popular culture because of things like the Marvel Cinematic Universe and so all the world historically has been dominated by two cosmological theories

[00:21:36] the theological theory creation of ex-nehalo which suggests that created everything came out of nothing and then the scientific big bang theory which despite the fact that it's often vilified by evangelical Christians suggests a similar notion which is that everything came out of nothing

[00:21:54] in that history the universe existence all comes from a single point so the latter day Saints though find great solace in a theory that suggests that a universe can seem to have come from a single point of creation while not actually coming from nothing

[00:22:12] so so once again while this is not the doctrine of the LDS Church Hagen in my opinion should be commended for doing what I asked my missionary friend to do follow the logical conclusions of

[00:22:23] the doctrine that has been officially endorsed by the Church so despite this commendation both the official cosmology of the LDS and the attempts to reconcile it to the world of science though fail

[00:22:37] to stand up to the critical eye because when we look at this the idea that comes out of latter day Saints both that God is human essentially and that he exists in an exalted state and

[00:22:48] the logical conclusion that comes out of that which is this past infinite regression of universes and gods bring him young goes so far to say that there's never been a time without

[00:22:59] worlds and gods. This is flawed logically and actually I want to walk through some of these flaws with you because in my opinion it's not only important for you in the case you know that you're

[00:23:14] talking to somebody who belongs to the Church Jesus Christ's latter day Saints but also walking through these problems walking through these flaws in this other system I think should strengthen our

[00:23:24] own faith that we have good reason to believe what we believe so the first flaw is this there's actually a problem when we suggest that in an actualized world and a world that actually exists

[00:23:37] that an actual infinity exists because think about it right the past infinite regression of worlds and gods as Brigham Young would say also leads as Brigham Young once said as well that there never would be a time without worlds and gods and so the very foundation which LDS

[00:23:57] theology sits upon is faulty the system founded on infinite paths in an infinite future erodes the integrity of latter-day Saints theology because an actual infinity cannot exist in a finite world.

[00:24:12] It's a kind of a weird thing to say because I think as Christians we talk about infinity all the time like we talk about eternity all the time but when we really think about it an actual infinity

[00:24:25] something that never ends and something really that never began cannot exist in an actual finite world and one of the best examples of this came from David Hilbert an influential 20th century mathematician he fashioned the classic Hilbert's hotel argument to show

[00:24:47] this and so I'll walk you through it basically it's imagine you're the proprietor of our hotel and that hotel has an infinite number of rooms and each of those rooms has a guest in it so you

[00:24:58] somehow or another right we suspend our disbelief for the purpose of this parable you have a hotel with infinite rooms and every single room has a guest in it and a traveler walks

[00:25:10] into the lobby and asks if there are any vacancies but before you can say no you have an idea you have each of the current guests move one room to their left room one to room two

[00:25:21] room three etc and so an infinite set moves one room to their left and by doing this room one is now vacant so you can put your guest in that room but before you celebrate your success and even

[00:25:35] larger a problem arises an infinite number of travelers make their way into your lobby each of them looking for a room before you will hope you have another idea you have each of your current guests

[00:25:48] go to the room number that is double their current room so room one goes to room two room two to room four room three to room six etc now what you have is all of the even number rooms have guests in

[00:26:00] them but every single one of the odd number rooms is now vacant congratulations you have actually added two infinite sets together where it appeared that it was impossible this argument is made a really

[00:26:13] popular in the last 20 years by William Lankrig so I don't take not only of course did I not come up with that but I learned that most predominantly from listening to William Lankrig but at the core this silly story

[00:26:26] proves a very serious point the multiverse system that is the logical conclusion of latter day syn theology is likely impossible because it would require in a finite world for an infinite set to

[00:26:39] continue to grow and expand in an actual set of worlds so this would this would only be possible in an infinite world and as we know from logic from cosmology from physics

[00:26:56] you know the world we believe in is for the world that we live in as far as we can tell is not infinite there is a finite capacity to this world and so that's just one of the logical problems with the

[00:27:08] latter-day saint multiverse system the second one that I like to point out is the problem of what I call a meta morality with no moral law giver so if you're familiar with philosophy

[00:27:18] for familiar with the politics this is similar to the moral argument but the problem that's specific to a latter-day saint is that you know you're laying in bed at night as a latter-day saint

[00:27:31] missionary and you're laying there and you lay awake asking so who decides what makes a good saint in those past universes you know as we've observed there's a past regression of universes in the LDA system and we also stumble upon an past infinite regression of morality right each

[00:27:50] of these systems each of these universes there's there's an aspect of eternal progression and an exaltation which says that somebody who lives a faithful life would then go to the highest realm of heaven and possibly be given the opportunity to become a god themselves so the question is

[00:28:06] where does this morality which governs a saint's eternal progression come from if the very god they serve was once subject to it as well over each of those supposed multiverses or spheres of existence lies a meta morality that has no original author or source it just goes back

[00:28:26] and back and back and back are we to believe that the morality by which these universes are governed is pre-existent with no personal author or does each Heavenly Father get to impose upon each universe a numerality thereby existing relativistically from the morality's found in other

[00:28:44] universes you know I don't know I don't know what the answer to that is I'm not sure a lot of day Saint would either these questions those seem to point in a non-sensical direction

[00:28:52] which continues to hurtle us towards the rising mountain of glaring issues found in the Cosmox Cosmogeical section of the LDS theology right the question is all of these universes are governed by some sort of morality where does the morality come from well it doesn't come from the

[00:29:07] Heavenly Father that universe presumably because he was subject to that morality at one point in his life too and once again right we have turtles all the way down to use the turn the phrase

[00:29:20] another problem it comes once again from another classic argument for god's existence which the LDS are going to find problematic which is the problem with terminology and the cosmological argument the latter-day Saint's suggestion of a multiverse system still leads us to the question

[00:29:35] that every human wonders at one point where does all of this come from in the first place and and as one plays out the thought experience of how this regression would have played out

[00:29:45] there are two possible outcomes either that line of universes is in fact past infinite like so if you can try and formulate that in your mind the idea that there's a past infinite regression of

[00:29:57] universes which as we've seen you know from the problem of infinity presents an issue in itself but there's also the possibility right that there is in fact an ultimate creator being at the

[00:30:09] beginning of all of it right bigger me on might have been wrong right that that maybe there was a time where we're a creator being existed and began this this LDS dominant line of universes so

[00:30:26] this being is the one who created the primordial pre-existent matter and who set the wheels in motion right this is the logical conclusion of the cosmological argument which was pioneered by the 12th century Muslim theologian al-Gazali and he phrased it every being which begins has a

[00:30:43] cause for its beginning now the world is a being which begins therefore it possesses a cause for its beginning so while this seems simple enough at this point even the latter day Saint cosmologist

[00:30:56] would not in agreement right that that yes everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence the universe began in its existence so it has a cause and the the LDS theologian would say

[00:31:08] yes it does right Heavenly Father began or it brought about its existence yet the cosmological argument necessitates that we inquire about the nature of this first cause of all of the universes

[00:31:22] and wonder what kind of nature it must have had um that to create matter to create time to create space the ultimate uh terminal being at the beginning of the cosmological argument cannot be material cannot take up space cannot be subject to time so obviously the Heavenly Father

[00:31:45] found within LDS the al-Gid does not fit this necessary requirement given the belief and exaltation and eternal progression but of course the latter day Saint wouldn't say that he does but one must wonder right is the logical conclusion of this past regression of universes that at the beginning

[00:32:04] of that system that there's an uncaused cause and if there was would it then be true that all Heavenly Father's over all of these past spheres of existence including the one that we're in

[00:32:18] wouldn't it be true then that those Heavenly Father's would worship that first being that brought about all these things into motion so with that notion then we also come up which but I what I believe is probably the biggest problem is that in relation to the possibility

[00:32:40] that latter day Saints you know follow that logical conclusion and says well maybe maybe there's a being at the beginning of all these things who started this whole thing in motion you know or when you compare those two lists of the God found in historic Orthodox Christianity

[00:32:57] and then the God of the latter day Saints is that at the end of the day the Heavenly Father found in latter day Saint theology the one who they believe fashioned this universe out of pre-existent

[00:33:07] matter and who formed as spiritual children a UNI this is a lesser God you know and so ultimately we find that in compared to the terminal being proven by the cosmological argument

[00:33:25] compared to the God of the 66 books of the Bible that the God described in latter day Saint theology is is an imperfect man that has been given status as a God but he is not God eternally

[00:33:39] he's he's not perfect and in fact some saints might even suggest that God himself continues to become more and more perfect and so while John chapter 4 verse 24 says God is spirit and Psalm 90

[00:33:53] verse 2 says he has been God from everlasting to everlasting the latter day Saint disagrees with that Malachi 3 6 says that he never changes and Solomon proclaimed the first kings 8 verse 27 that the heavens cannot contain God the latter day Saints says that he's a man with flesh and bones

[00:34:11] Yahweh is revealed through the entirety of his scriptures as an immense God of infinite power and magnitude and in his created order which is the entirety of all things ever created he is the only one worth worshiping yet even the founders of the church say that somewhere else

[00:34:28] somewhere else in time somewhere else in space there are other gods and they might even be further along the process of eternal progression than our Heavenly Father so no matter the lofty language used to describe him the Heavenly Father found within latter day Saint tradition

[00:34:45] is a shadow of a God and stands as just one more way humanity has sought to ascribed their worship to someone other than the one true God who created this universe out of nothing

[00:34:57] and so the latter day Saint missionary sitting across the table from me looks at the napkin and says well I don't know that's a question I've never thought of before the question

[00:35:06] where I said hey if I could tear down that wall would you worship another Heavenly Father if he was more perfect and they stood each other and shook their heads and and I said I don't believe that a

[00:35:16] God who might pale in comparison to another should be worshiped in the first place. I don't believe we worship the same God is the latter day Saints it's a completely different God

[00:35:28] and I don't mean for my words to you or to the latter day Saints sitting across from me at the table to necessarily be offensive in a way that I want to hurt you but I also don't want

[00:35:38] to sacrifice true through false unity and so my meaning that day ended cordially actually we we ended up hanging out more with those guys they were a lot of fun but at the end of the day

[00:35:55] we worship completely different God's because God is not a human he's not an exalted man and the joy of that day for me came as we were getting ready to leave the coffee shop

[00:36:05] and one of the missionaries looks at the napkin points to it and says hey could I keep that and of course I smile and hand it to him I say absolutely

[00:36:14] and so I don't know if that napkin found its way into a trash can or into the hands of a mission president who used it as a training tool for how to deal with problematic evangelicals

[00:36:24] either once fun because all I hope is that latter day Saints sitting across from me or maybe even listening to this podcast or even Christians for that matter might come to the realization

[00:36:36] that was drawn out on that napkin that the God that I worship that the God of historic orthodox Christianity is not the same God is the latter day Saints he is different

[00:36:46] he is unique he is infinite he is the only one worth worshiping and no matter how hard I try I am not and I never will be so that's a lot that's a lot I know if you stuck it through

[00:37:03] all the way to the end congratulations you know but at the end of the day who we say God is what we say God is really matters and it it really matters to the rest of our belief

[00:37:17] and so let me know what you think of that reach out to me at Jeremy and all things all people dot org review the show if you like it if you don't like it just move along

[00:37:27] don't worry about it we don't want you to review it that's not no problem you won't bother us if you don't review it so but if you disagree with me let me know I want to hear from you

[00:37:37] if you're a latter day saint I want to hear from you you know and yeah the whole point of base camp is that as we go out and explore as we go out and have these experiences we want to be

[00:37:46] able to come back and debrief and share what we've learned from those explorations from engaging the the darkest and most difficult places with the gospel so we'll be back at it next week with

[00:37:57] more debriefing with more base camp stories and until then thanks thank you for listening to this episode of base camp if you want more help engaging the least reached people in the darkest places

[00:38:22] with the gospel I want to invite you to join the all things all people engage network by joining the engage network you will receive training in worldview and world religions leadership discipleship evangelism and apologetics you'll also receive demographic analysis and outreach strategy

[00:38:41] that will help you to accurately target your city with the gospel and access to all of ataps educational materials if you want to learn more just go to all thingsallpeople.org and click on engage network thanks for listening hope you love the show