"Demons & The Spiritual World" w/ Dr. Joel Muddamalle

[00:00:08] Hey, and welcome to Basecamp. This is a podcast fitting within the overall ministry and mission of all things, all people, and I am the executive director of all things, all people, Jeremy Jenkins.

[00:00:20] Here at ATAP what we affectionately call all things, all people, our mission and ministry and the whole reason that we do everything is to explore the darkest places in the world views and to equip Christians to engage them with the gospel.

[00:00:36] So this podcast is just one small way that we do that and the way that we go about it is that we feature Christians who through their own adventures, ministries, studies, whether academically, theologically, pastorally or maybe just some experience that the Lord has led them to and through line up with the mission of the ATAP of going into the dark for the sake of the gospel.

[00:01:04] And this episode's guest is Dr. Joel Muddamalle. As you're going to hear in just a few minutes when I introduce him, he is a really impressive guy.

[00:01:16] You can follow him at Muddamalle on Instagram where he does a ton of great content answering and addressing questions and really difficult topics. Theologically he works for 31 ministries with a woman you might know Lisa Turkhurst,

[00:01:33] as well as doing a ton of other stuff. But the reason why he's on the episode today is that he, as a new testament to theologian, has studied quite extensively in area of theology that unfortunately is largely neglected by the Evangelical Church which is the spiritual world, the supernatural realm, so to speak and even more specifically the origin of particular spiritual beings, namely demons

[00:02:01] and all of the other spiritual beings that kind of come with that topic. And so Joel and I have a fantastic conversation that you're going to hear just in just a second about that,

[00:02:13] and the aim and the goal of course and having him on is to help those explorers and evangelists who love the mission of ATAP and are seeking to go into the dark

[00:02:24] to understand better what it is that's going on in this unseeable, un-touchable spiritual world that we're in the midst of that I always like to tell people is just as real as the physical world even though we can't see taste touch and smell it.

[00:02:41] So unfortunately we've been tricked as Western Christians into thinking that somehow the spiritual world is less real than the physical world because we can't test it, but that's just not true.

[00:02:52] And so you're going to hear that from Joel and it's going to be an amazing conversation. I did want to note though, you're going to hear me mention another person in this interview Dr. Michael Heiser.

[00:03:03] Dr. Heiser was actually Joel's doctoral supervisor, one of them along with another man named Patrick Schreiner. And Dr. Heiser has, for the last five or ten years, become a really prevalent voice actually in this conversation about the unseen realm which is actually a book that he himself wrote,

[00:03:22] called the unseen realm, he's written extensively on angels and demons and a topic that by no means is new, but he did an amazing job of bringing it back to the forefront called the divine council idea which is based off of some things found in the Old Testament. That explained that maybe there is a hierarchy to the spiritual beings that sometimes we as Christians are tempted to just kind of all lump together.

[00:03:51] Well, Dr. Heiser who is a privileged scholar in his own right and has made a huge impact on really evangelical Christianity in the last five or ten years.

[00:04:01] He's been struggling with pancreatic cancer and in the course of this episode, Joel and I actually mentioned that and I mentioned that we should be praying for.

[00:04:09] Well, since we recorded this episode, really actually shortly after we recorded this episode, Dr. Heiser himself posted on his social media accounts that things were not looking good and that the prognosis is quite dire and that in all likelihood, you know he'll be going home to the Lord here soon.

[00:04:30] So I just wanted to make an extra no matter where the timing of this episode is, I'm recording it a day before it publishes, our recording this intro a day before it publishes.

[00:04:39] I just wanted to invite each and every one of you to be in prayer for Dr. Heiser and his family on our old podcast, the ATAP podcast. Dr. Heiser was actually a guest of mine and he was nothing but friendly and warm to me.

[00:04:56] He was always been very encouraging to me anytime he and I bumped into each other in the world of social media.

[00:05:02] And so on account of the influence that he's had, but then also just the character that he's demonstrated and also the influence that he's had on this episode's guest, Dr. Modemale.

[00:05:13] I invite you to be in prayer for Dr. Heiser and his family as they go through this really horrible time.

[00:05:21] So with that in mind, I'd love to invite you to turn your attention to this topic now that Joel and I have the honor to talk about which is so important to Dr. Heiser and I hope that it's important to you because as you're going to find out when you begin to really find the answers to some of the questions about what's

[00:05:40] the spiritual beings these angels, these demons, these sons of God that we read about in Genesis.

[00:05:45] Who are they and what are they? You'll actually begin to see the spiritual world that we are operating in and around is actually so much more rich in vibrant than we could ever imagine.

[00:05:55] And I hope that today's episode gives you just a small step towards developing an even greater understanding of that. So with that, let's turn our attention to the conversation for this base camp, Dr. Joel Modemale.

[00:06:09] So our guest today is the director of theology and research for Provers 31 Ministries where he works with well-known names Lisa Turkers.

[00:06:22] But he's also so many other things part of the teaching team at Transformation Church in Charlotte and just being local to Charlotte. I can tell you he preaches it seems like all over the place in Charlotte and he's well known in our community.

[00:06:36] He earned his PhD under the guidance of Dr. Patrick Schreiner and my Kaiser where he began to work and write on some of the topics that we're discussing today.

[00:06:45] And from falling on social media, I know that he can also often be found hooping and watching the Chicago Bears and constantly writing and working in the area of New Testament theology.

[00:06:58] And I think that's a lot of fun in my honor to have on Dr. Joel Modemale. Joel, thank you so much for doing this. This is so much fun and an honor to ask you.

[00:07:07] Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate it. And thanks for the shout out for the hooping because I think some of the best theological pondering take place when you're on the court and being humbled by the fact that you know your body ages and you can't quite move the way you used to.

[00:07:23] So what better things to think on with the things of God? Yeah.

[00:07:27] It seems like every time I see you posted about that is it seems like it's always and I have these too, you know, even pre-show where discussing just being in our mid to late 30s and becoming more and more aware of the fact that we're not as young as we used to be.

[00:07:44] And so I kind of had a feeling that that was the vantage point that you had because I'm the same way like every time I do anything physical and I remember how easy it used to be.

[00:07:54] And now it's to see, yeah, so there's a lot of theological pondering to be had when you realize the the fragile nature of man and the the losing of our youth and all that so yeah I can see it though.

[00:08:08] But I imagine you probably still you're probably still yeah, I do move. Jack Packer has an incredible little tiny book that he wrote.

[00:08:15] I think right before he ended up going to be with the Lord it's called weakness is the way and I just the older I get a resonate. I mean this how bad it is right now. I have a reading chair in my home study.

[00:08:26] I'm staring at her right now and my wife for Christmas got me the leg compression deal. So because it's like a whole routine now you know and so I had like my theology stack of books that I'm working through and once I get done hooping I'll come home.

[00:08:40] I'll get in the compression sleeves and it's like a 45 minute routine to just get my body ready to walk the next day. And it and it just humbles me and I sit and then I get humbled theologically as I read some incredible scholars.

[00:08:53] So yep, it is the way of life. Yeah. Yeah and you know you mentioned sitting in your home study of which you know I constantly see you working in this on Instagram. If somebody's listening to this and they don't already follow you at Modemale on Instagram.

[00:09:11] One of my favorite follows and it's really encouraging to see all just all the things that you're constantly working on.

[00:09:17] Like right now in the process of writing a book but then you know I think your first foothold in the world of social media what not was working with props 31.

[00:09:27] Just for my own sake because I'm fascinated at the at the notion like what what is it that you do as director of theology and research for.

[00:09:38] Yeah so some of your artists is probably wondering wait a minute I know the Bible enough to know that probability one is a chapter about woman you know this and.

[00:09:48] And Joel's a dude so how does that work and so yeah I am one of six guys now of ministry of over 65 people and it's amazing actually think I get some I've learned so much more.

[00:10:03] And so I think I'm going to be able to look at the public theologically sitting under the leadership of some incredibly wise Bible teachers my role is to step in and to help bring some oversight.

[00:10:13] To theological development and research on the various projects that we work on so we've got an app called the first five app where we kind of work exegetically through all the books of the Bible when it first launched after the first five years actually.

[00:10:26] And so we're going to be a little bit more interesting to be honest we work through every book of the Bible and so every study that we do we do a companion Bible study guide that goes with it.

[00:10:36] So on the in the early days I was actually writing those guides with it today I do more editorial work as we have a team that's kind of working on the direct content and that frees me up a little bit to do more teaching for our teams.

[00:10:49] Seminary level introductions to every new book the Bible that we're jumping into.

[00:10:55] And then a part of it also is a podcast series that we started a couple years ago called therapy in theology with myself and my co-host Lisa Turcrest and Jim Crasse who's licensed professional therapist and we take tough topics that the church and.

[00:11:11] Christians in general are walking through and we do are very best to present it in a biblical theological, faithful perspective but also bring in common great stuff like therapy

[00:11:21] that got his gifted us with and apply that to our lives. And so all that to say, I spend the majority of my days studying fascinating topics, research topics and then figuring out how we're going to

[00:11:34] present it, whether it be through writing or video audio teaching and then also reviewing other content that we need to go out into the space. Well, awesome. Well, so the reason why I

[00:11:45] want to have you on apart from just the fact, you know, you know, I sent you a message the other day, you were celebrating the fact that, you know, you were mentioned in like outreach magazines

[00:11:55] like 20 rising voices in the Christian world and and I had actually just said to my wife, I said, it seems like modemole is really becoming more and more well-known and respected and for good

[00:12:08] reason because, you know, from my vantage point it seems like you approach everything from a really studious aspect of like approaching it through a new testament theological perspective and I wanted

[00:12:19] to talk with you not just because of that but because in the midst of all of that and the midst of how you approach things and how you do approach things with the humility and a studious nature,

[00:12:29] you have worked in a field, theologically that I think listeners of an A-Tap podcast can really benefit from, which is you wrote your dissertation at Midwestern, Baptist theological seminary in the title as Paul's Oikos terminology in Ephesians, Babel in Deuteronomy 32 as background text,

[00:12:47] which to the average listener does not sound like anything that they can relate to. But you and I both know is it's actually diving into the world of like the rich spiritual world that that unfortunately

[00:13:04] in the evangelical sphere, like we just haven't had enough good teaching on and specifically things like angels and demons and what does the Bible mean in Genesis when it says we should create man and our image and all of these things that the church has historically explained away.

[00:13:22] So I wanted to have you on because I think so many of my followers and listeners can benefit from just having that theological perspective of like what does the Bible really say about these spiritual

[00:13:32] beings and what does it mean for us? So how did you like, you know in that title is a little bit deceptive I actually have a short excerpt that you sent me a couple months ago that I loved

[00:13:44] called God's cosmic family the sons of God which probably alludes more for the you know for the popular listener of what what you're writing about but how did you come about that field of

[00:13:54] study and why is it that you're interested in? Yeah so really where it came up is and people can't see me maybe on video but you can see me I'm Indian and so I'm Indian my wife is white we've got

[00:14:09] children that are biracial they're half white half Indian and you know the idea of this multi-ethnic beautifully diverse family that is the family of God has always been something that's

[00:14:21] very been near and dear to me and in the process I was like I think there's gotta be a strong substantive theological backing to it and so this is kind of what happens with me Jeremy is I want

[00:14:32] the text to lead me to places of research and study and questions and so a couple things are always just curious to me we're in Ephesians chapter two particularly you know in 18 through kind of

[00:14:44] twenty-two Paul's having this conversation where he's talking about how at one point we were enemies of God and then all of a sudden there are these sojourners and strangers there are these foreigners

[00:14:56] that are not part of the people of God that are invited in to be part of the people of God and these people come together and they build the building blocks of what is going to be the temple

[00:15:08] of God and so I thought it was so interesting that there is nations and ethnicities within there's temple language that's there and in New Testament study if you look at New Testament commentaries on Ephesians 2 which for my dissertation I think I read 200 commentaries all on just

[00:15:24] that's you know and it was really interesting that I literally 99% of the commentaries are all going to take you to a Greco Roman background which basically means that it's a New Testament context where the Greeks are there but then the Romans have stepped in until you've got both

[00:15:39] the Greek or Hellenistic background which also have Roman influence that's taking place and so I was like that's great but Paul's a good Jewish boy like Paul has deep old Testament roots so there's gotta be some Old Testament in here and as I was actually Mark is part

[00:15:57] the son of the great Theologian Karl Bart and he was the only one in all these cometers that are read that in one little passing line he wrote and this has an echo of the tower of

[00:16:08] Babel and then he moves on and I was like whew wait a minute what is happening here and so that led me to a Kiddles temple language there's this idea of the nations that are present

[00:16:20] and then what's happening at Babel? Well back in Genesis 11 you've got these people that all gather together and they build what is essentially a Zigrote the tower of Babel is a Zigrote it's an

[00:16:31] ancient pyramid and this pyramid structure would have been a spiritual temple where at the very top and we've got in ancient Mesopotamia we actually have archaeology that shows you know that this is the design and what have taken place but at the very top of the Zigrote temple

[00:16:49] would have been a house a chamber for the god I'm gonna put that in quotes the Elohim the god to come down and to reside and so here we have the tower of Babel you've got these people

[00:17:02] and what they're trying to do is the commission for humanity in Genesis um for Adam and Eve was actually to go out into the world and spread the image of God out into the ends of the earth

[00:17:12] and we have in Genesis chapter 11 total rebellion because instead of going out into the world they build a temple and they try to force God to come down to them it's a it's a sign of rebellion

[00:17:23] of power it's a sign of a surping authority all of these things are taking place and there's a consequence for what they do and this brings me into Genesis 11 and connecting it to Ephesians chapter

[00:17:36] 2 which basically and we have to go to Deuteronomy 32 8th year 9 I'll just read that here really quick and then what we can move on it says this you have to read Genesis 32 8 through 9 as the

[00:17:49] aftermath of the Babel event so Genesis 11 takes place God disperses the nations you know they all lose the one language and they have to go out because they can't talk to each other but this is what Genesis 32 8 through 9 says and this is the Deuteronomy 32 worldview when the most

[00:18:04] high gave to the nations they're inheritance when he divided mankind he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the numbers of McEveah Hebrew term here the Benet Elohim the sons of God

[00:18:18] but then verse 9 but the Lord's portion is his people Jacob his allotted heritage and so what we have in Genesis 11 is this idea of God as king who is a good father who has to give discipline to

[00:18:35] his children that are in rebellion and essentially what he does is he takes Israel Jacob as his personal price possession but all the other nations of the world this is actually an act of kindness

[00:18:47] God doesn't leave them alone he doesn't leave them unattended he actually takes his heavenly hosts the angels which is what the phrase the sons of God the Benet Elohim is referring to and he gives them a

[00:19:00] delegated responsibility over the nations that delegated responsibility was not intended for these Benet Elohim to be the gods of the nations it was intended for them to be guardians of the nations and to at some point point them back to Yahweh and then we have something really interesting

[00:19:20] in Jeremiah 419 it says this and beware less to you and he's talking to the Israelites beware less you raise your eyes to heaven and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars and then this phrase

[00:19:31] the host of heaven which you could literally just put and replace sons of God there you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them things that the Lord Jacob has allotted that

[00:19:41] notice a lot in language has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven and this Jeremy says the trajectory for the entire Old Testament you've got these people these humans that have taken to these supernatural beings and they've actually given them worship they've given them

[00:20:00] adoration and they've substituted Yahweh as God and placed them in position and then the real rebellion is a supernatural rebellion because the supernatural beings accepted they're like this is great

[00:20:12] I love this I will be I will take it on and so they actually go into rebellion so I'm going to connect some dots what is Ephesians 2 18 22 what is it what is it talking about it's actually talking

[00:20:23] about God as a father who's reclaiming his family that went into rebellion and so these family members who submitted themselves to false gods not that they're not supernatural beings but they're just not Yahweh these false these false gods they are coming back into the household of God

[00:20:44] and it's really interesting because in Genesis 11 the building blocks of the Ziggurat temple are bricks but in Ephesians chapter 2 the building blocks are the nations of the world and they grow together

[00:20:56] to become a temple of God and guess what this is all throughout the New Testament what resides in the temple of God the presence of God the Holy Spirit and so you have that taking place but

[00:21:06] but what my dissertation showed me and this was kind of how you introed this all was that for us we view the supernatural world demarcated and separated as this component on the physical earthly

[00:21:19] temporal world as something different the ancient peoples the context of the Bible was not written in such a context the earthly and the cosmic the supernatural entered connected in a multiplicity of

[00:21:33] ways and the one has a direct impact on the other yeah yeah and I mean there's so much there at some point in this conversation I want to ask you about what you just said the spiritual world and

[00:21:47] I think that the the necessity for a better developed new mythology than most Western Christians have and what they believe about the quote unquote spiritual world before we get to that you know

[00:21:58] I teach an undergrad world religions class and I've snuck I've snuck some of this in sometimes when we talk about Judaism and then Christianity just more so to just show my students that there's there's other viewpoints even within you know evangelical Christianity and the number one question that

[00:22:19] that I always get and it's a great question it's actually I think it has to be asked of that viewpoint and the proponents of it which is so are we not polytheists then right because you talk about

[00:22:31] you know I teach on Hinduism and I teach on you know animism and you know anytime multiple what you know are describing as Elohim multiple Elohim show up we just classify that as polytheism

[00:22:43] in a really reductionistic way mind you but so why then would you and and guys like Dr. Heiser and whatnot you know what distinction is necessary then to not hurt or less towards a polytheistic

[00:22:57] world view where Yahweh is just one yeah it has to deal with creation it has to deal with the unique substance of who Yahweh is so in all the other religions you have this this

[00:23:14] the substance is shared amongst these supernatural beings that's where you have in Greek mythology there's this battle with Kronos and you've got Zeus and then you've got you know even a Poseidon at different

[00:23:24] times trying to vie for power and authority none of that is present in this way when it comes to the substance of who Yahweh is Yahweh is unique he's one of a kind there is no other Elohim

[00:23:39] that is like Yahweh you know and so Yahweh in his uniqueness as the one and only Yahweh he he does create supernatural beings and human beings as part of and this is the language of Heiser

[00:23:56] and others as his divine counsel and this is where delegated authorities were really important and so you do have supernatural beings that are unlike anything that Yahweh is in total substance and yet gotten his kindness he shares willingly parts of his attributes with angelic beings there's

[00:24:13] a supernatural component with humanity there are different attributes that he shares with us as the creator with the created but it's not in the same substance right so the a common misunderstanding I think at times is that there's these two powers you've got good and evil God

[00:24:30] represents good and Satan or Lucifer represents evil and there's this equal tension that's taking place well that is absent in in in in biblical theology that's absent in the story of of the scriptures

[00:24:43] what you have is Lucifer as a created being who is supernatural and has been given gifts by God and yet attempts to go into active rebellion against God and then he is punished you know he's

[00:24:55] then sent down onto earth along with his heavenly host and so the thought of polytheism I think is understandable because we've we've we've grouped together ideas of all supernatural beings are all the same substance they're all the same being right but when it comes to Christian theology

[00:25:15] there is no Yahweh there is no equal an opposite of Yahweh it's not a ying in the hang idea of these two good of a good and evil that's going against each other there is only one Yahweh

[00:25:27] and yet Yahweh God in his kindness has creation and he gives them a delegate of responsibility yeah so in a sense too like one thing that has to be developed amongst most

[00:25:42] Christians late late Christians and of course even you know those of us in ministries the idea that you know creation you know the idea of creation of nothing necessitates Yahweh being

[00:25:53] L. L. on or God in so it's not threatening I feel like sometimes people when they hear this kind of viewpoint it's intimidating because they feel as if we might be putting something or someone

[00:26:05] on the same level as Yahweh and it's really I suppose to a certain degree it's that Western Christian specifically just don't have a place on their shelf for this type of interpretation because we've always just assumed you have God and then you have angels and demons

[00:26:23] and everything else and when you start talking you know you you mentioned divine counsel and things like that and people just man they're like when it seems like you're elevating something too close to the place of Yahweh and that's that's really not the case that's

[00:26:38] really not the case at all I think Heiser says you know Yahweh is an elopee mario yeah exactly yeah and so and then also to you know that word Elohim I mean that's that is the word correct

[00:26:54] me from wrong that's that's used to describe other regional deities bail in in other gods in the country yeah it can be so also that Hebrew word Elohim is not so this is what we've done

[00:27:06] even even this might be going too deep into it but the Hebrew word has satan you know it's literally translated in job as the accuser it's there's there's actually no definitive article in front of it and so the definitive article would actually present a title of a person

[00:27:24] and that's not present so really what we actually have is the official person the title of a person who would act in this way you know and so in the same way Elohim that Hebrew word it's it's

[00:27:39] general it talks about ending and all supernatural beings there's actually interesting text here let's see if I can find it yeah so we can go to Deuteronomy 32 17 and it talks about this it says

[00:27:54] they sacrifice to demons I'm gonna give the Hebrew words here they sacrifice to demons this plural that the Hebrew word for demons is shadim not God now notice this it's aloha aloha which is singular

[00:28:07] to God's Elohim plural they had not known new gods hada shim which is a throwback to the shadim earlier that had just arrived which your ancestors did not fear so here you've got Moses writing in Deuteronomy 32 17 and he's very clear that there are shadim demons these shadim

[00:28:28] demons are supernatural beings Elohim and yet there is God singular aloha or a type another version of alohaim right but God is unique he is not you know all the other alohaim are not Yahweh

[00:28:43] but they had not known to hada shim that had just arrived so you see you see the presence there and what this does Jeremy and I think your listeners might be like what is happening right now

[00:28:53] what it's doing is it's it's forcing us to break western constructs of mindsets that we have categorized the biblical story in because the biblical story was not written with a western context in mind the biblical narrative is not it has an ancient context it has an

[00:29:12] ancient Near Eastern context and so if we want to be good students of the Bible we really need to make room for the space in the context in which the scriptures were written and to not try to force

[00:29:23] our categories upon the text but to live within the categories that the text itself implements and then you've got biblical interpretation and application in the hermanutical model which then says okay now what can we retrieve from that and build the bridge of contextualization to our time

[00:29:39] but this is why I think having this this discussion is so so important because it helps us to see these distinctions yeah yeah and I mean you know you mentioned listeners they might have

[00:29:53] listen to this point just gone oh my goodness what what is all of this right it brings us to the question which I think some people would have liked to even start of this conversation with but I

[00:30:02] feel like that you know that prior stuff is so important I'm looking at Dr. Mike Heiser's book demons you know I kind of glance through it in prep for this and I failed to mention actually

[00:30:15] thus far because obviously I know he's he's really important to you and I've had the opportunity of talking with him in the past he's he is yeah cancer right now and you know just for all the

[00:30:27] sinners be being prayer for for Dr. Heiser he's a great man his contributed and really just the last few years a ton to a lot of young Bible students including myself and Joel I know he's made a

[00:30:41] huge impression on you and so we need to be in prayer for him and his family but I look at this book and so then I after hearing all of that I asked the question that I think a lot of people would

[00:30:53] want to ask so okay so then what are demons you know what are these things that we see really show up prominently in the new testament as adversaries as part of you know the enemy strategy for

[00:31:08] you know tripping Jesus up and then even you know just continually showing up in the new testament but we don't ever get like a really good webster's dictionary definition of who they are what

[00:31:18] they are you know what's the deal with that and then we just so what what what we do what we have you and I've been discussing which is we just find a comfortable place on the shelf for them

[00:31:27] and we put them there and we say up demons are part of the enemy's army and and that's all they are so with all of this in mind then what would you say to the to the to the to the to the Christian

[00:31:38] who you know wants to further their theological understanding of the spiritual ward and therefore yeah so again I would probably take us back to Deuteronomy 32 17 in this passage they

[00:31:50] sacrificed the demons not to God to God to God to they had not known new gods that had just arrived which your ancestors did not fear and so we can get super technical here I'm going to try to refrain

[00:32:02] from doing all of that but in the in the Old Testament the concept of these demons these should deem are supernatural beings that are of a lesser it's so there is this idea of category there is categorical among the supernatural beings responsibilities categorical

[00:32:22] kind of ways that they act and so one of the things is that the sons of God the Benel Benel Elohim that are given over to the to the nation so take care of them become corrupted are the

[00:32:33] gods of the nations and so these are what Paul would give different language who would call them rulers principalities powers yeah he would use those languages and at times as a synonym he would also say yeah and these are demons that's what happens in 1 Corinthians 10

[00:32:49] 22 22 this will Paul says now I'm pli that what pagan sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God and the Greek word is demon on there I do not want you to be participants with demons

[00:33:04] Dominion you cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons you cannot partake of the table the Lord and the table of demons shall we provoked the Lord to jealousy are we

[00:33:12] stronger than he so you have this sense that the gods of the pagan nations the gods of Egypt the gods of of Mesopotamia the gods of Babylon in Assyria are real actual supernatural beings

[00:33:34] that have limited authority and limited power in a supernatural sense and so when you get to the plagues in Egypt right you got that story and you've got Moses the steps before Pharaoh and there are these magicians essentially and they're doing all of these things there's a good

[00:33:53] sense that there is real supernatural activity that's taking place because there are real supernatural beings behind that now notice what Yahweh would God does what God does is in each of the plagues

[00:34:06] it's actually very technical in the plagues that he does he uses the 10 plagues to attack 10 types of deities that would have been worshiped and he shows it in the 10 plagues that he is superior to those

[00:34:18] 10 deities to those 10 super supernatural beings and those beings can't do anything about it they can't overcome overcome them these are demons right there is another view of demons as well in the new testament and this is something that hyzer likes to emphasize the the the demons of the

[00:34:41] New Testament that are being cast out of people are a different type of category so again we use it's it's in the same way in English when I can say hey I love my wife but I also love Snickers bars

[00:34:51] like I'm talking categorically in different categories right uh totally different ways of the homies in the word love so in the same way at times because we don't have instant access to

[00:35:01] the Greek behind there the Hebrew behind it um we're glossing the word in a way to just categorically place them in the same space so demons when we're talking about Jesus as he is casting out demons you

[00:35:14] know the the legion that go into the pigs and all this other stuff uh we're actually talking about all the way back in Genesis 6 you've got the story of the sons of God and um you've got the

[00:35:26] presence of the offspring of the sons of God and human women um and they're referred to as nepheline they're these giants the gibbering is in Hebrew as well and these uh have divine have human individuals these giants when they die the supernatural aspect of them their their spirits

[00:35:50] essentially become demons they still surface on the earth and they torment humanity and germ I don't know we've you and I've never had this conversation before and so it's part of it's like

[00:36:01] I might say something you totally disagree with and you can disagree with it and we can have a conversation around it but I've been paying attention to the work that you've done and with especially with cults

[00:36:10] and um with other religions and stuff like that but I was talking to my oldest son the other day and he was at he's super into Greek mythology and all this stuff you know percolies and um Odysseus and

[00:36:20] all of that and I just was thinking back I'm like well the nepheline give the origin story for all these beings like like there is like think about it right like did this just imaginatively show up

[00:36:31] sometime in human history that humanity had some creative ability to create worlds and to create these types of stories to make sense of the world in creation I actually think I look back and

[00:36:43] go now this is all rooted in biblical history and so they are using stories like um of Zeus and Hercules and these you know Gilgamesh the epic of Gilgamesh think we're talking about

[00:36:55] nepheline here you know it's in the biblical narrative with the lion we're talking about nepheline these giants and so that's also present as well yeah yeah you know you mentioned the work that

[00:37:08] that I do with a tap and um I don't I've drawn it first it was hyzer and then just now consuming some of the stuff that you know I've seen out of out of your ministry which this for listeners you

[00:37:20] aren't familiar with you this is actually like you you very rarely ever talk about Breckin stuff in some of the work that you do so some people who actually maybe an avid follower of yours might be

[00:37:29] alarmed to find out that this is what you've done your work on but it is a super important like the reason why I wanted to have you on is like this is a branch of theology

[00:37:39] that I have seen firsthand a the modern western church has no understanding of and b we are we are dramatically hurt by it because you know you mentioned the Greek mythology and all of that

[00:37:51] it's not that you know in my opinion it's not that you know our kids can't be somewhat fascinated with that right because this is the world's stories but I agree with you I you know it's what this is

[00:38:02] what I do is a study other religions and other worldviews and I I am constantly amazed at the fact that long before human migration different parts of the planet different cultures different

[00:38:15] complete world is I mean and you know I mean you just you were just in India like right actually a week before I was there I mean India there in India in East Asia like these places

[00:38:29] they are as different from the United States as you possibly could get but yet thousands and thousands and thousands of years back long before human migration we agreed on very few things

[00:38:40] and that was that there were angels in demons like there is angels in demons present in every world view and every religion throughout all of human history and I agree with you in total is that

[00:38:50] that is actually a great evidence of the fact that what the Bible says to be true about the spiritual realm is in fact true in my master's degree I wrote extensively on a on-kinesh

[00:39:03] a Hindu deity and actually there's there's a lot of ties that show that Ganesh at one point was what's called a vinyaka which is a vinyaka is a hinderur in South Asian and East Asian

[00:39:16] religions and that actually the first records we have of Ganesh are as a demon like figure in in Asian worldview and so it's not started and I you haven't said anything that I disagree with yet

[00:39:28] and I doubt you will because I have I have seen this with my own eyes of like no this is real and and so and I think that's why people you know unfortunately it's hypersensationalized

[00:39:39] often is that sometimes people hear the word demon and and the the stuff I post on social media and this podcast will probably dramatically outperform some others that I do simply because

[00:39:50] that's in the title but people are interested in it for a reason which is you know they feel like this is a real thing but they don't know how to how to explain it and so I'll stop and say like

[00:40:03] and I don't know your opinion on this particular resource but one of the best resources outside of hizer in your work that I've come across is the Bible Project series on spiritual intimacy

[00:40:13] which I think hizer was actually reviewed and that which I think hizer was actually yeah yeah and so that's an incredible resource for people who want to begin developing an understanding of this

[00:40:24] but no I think what the Bible says is more true than we realize when it comes to this. I think this is also why like Paul took it seriously. Paul took it seriously so you I think we should

[00:40:34] take it seriously I've just pointed back to first Corinthians 10, 23 22 when he says like don't take part in these pagan sacrifices why because these pagan sacrifices are associated with real supernatural malevolent beings that are how bent on the destruction of God's people

[00:40:53] and yet they kind of know that the end is up there's this sense that on the cross the the mortal wound was delivered but there's the story of African lines at the very end of their

[00:41:03] life that they're actually the most dangerous you know right before they die they basically have nothing left to lose and so here we are in a time post the the resurrection post the crucifixion

[00:41:14] and we've got a real enemy that is aware that their time is limited and that you know punishment judgment awaits them and so they're going to be more deceptive, more treacherous, more accusative

[00:41:26] and every way possible in order to trick us into giving our allegiance over to them and to join them in their destruction. Yeah and I think that's kind of you know as I know people

[00:41:43] I really do you know early you mentioned the stuff that that I've been able to do with a tap and I intentionally try and avoid the hypersensationalizing of the demonic and spiritual warfare

[00:41:57] and things like that because you know like you I've had quite a quite a bit of experience with a certain sphere within charismatic denominations and things like that which while often find myself agreeing with their theology more than I would agree with maybe a

[00:42:13] reform cessation of theology is the end that it gets to which is just kind of like this everything is a demon or everything is an angel and I just don't think that's the right way to go but

[00:42:24] you know coming from a theologian's perspective as somebody comes to the topic of spiritual warfare which if they're following a tap then then in all likelihood this is on their mind like what does a healthy theology of the spiritual world and maybe even the topic of spiritual

[00:42:40] warfare in your opinion what does that look like as people honestly just don't have a lot of good educational resources will say for the topic of spiritual warfare. Yeah there's an excellent book by a New Testament scholar that is actually done for like the everyday average Bible

[00:43:01] reader I think it's literally just called spiritual warfare it's by Clint Arnold. Oh yeah brilliant brilliant scholar reference a lot of his work of mind dissertation but I would start with boundaries on what supernatural on what demons can do and cannot do

[00:43:18] and so one thing that's super important for us to recognize is that these enemies of God these supernatural beings are limited in time and space they're not unlimited they're not omniscient they're not omnipresent right which brings balance to what you just said like

[00:43:35] that over sensationalism that the I hate is a strong word but it frustrates me when I hear like the devil's there you know the stains around the corner say he's watching you and like

[00:43:49] you know say he's limited in time and space and in physicality even and so in that same's probably gonna be real strategic I'm going to be you know what's happening what is so

[00:44:02] so one is just being aware that should be a comfort to us in one sense is that they're there limitations to this to these enemies and yet they have been working throughout time and space

[00:44:14] and I'm we're talking all the way back Genesis 11 all the way back Genesis 6 right in order to to master a craft to deal with and to deceive large populations of people with the limited resources and abilities that they have and so there are there and I'm going to

[00:44:33] use some words to the people might get a little bit panicky on but I do believe that the evil towers work within systems and structures to create environments of toxicity and evil in

[00:44:48] order to undermine the good news of the gospel and in order to put the people of God in an un an un helpful position so you've got that you know in terms of how they work

[00:45:04] and in terms of what the spiritual warfare look like I would say something again I fight against the the sensationalism of it I think you know we need to be really careful but we allow

[00:45:17] into our minds what we want to I'm even thinking and talking about things like alcohol and and foods and narcotics and you know like if you just look at the rise of prescription meds abuse you know fentanyl all this stuff that's taking place I think there's some really

[00:45:36] evil powers behind behind this because what's happening is it's taking away people's ability to think rightly it's creating confusion in their mind I heard a like a great great NFL football player who was talking and raving about taking drugs who lucidative drugs that helped him face fear

[00:45:58] you know and overcome his fear of death and I'm like that's dark power stuff that's that's the definition of demonic you know yeah and so that's there so I think that the enemy works in three

[00:46:08] kind of categories I think that me works to tempt us to deceive us and to accuse us and so we need to be aware we need to be looking out and looking for and this is the the subtlety of the enemy right

[00:46:22] and I'm not even talking about this super sensational stuff I'm talking about like yeah and I'm going to bring a way down to the way down to the ground like you like really good food you know

[00:46:32] food is a good thing that God has given us but but when we are obsessed with food and it brings total satisfaction that becomes the temptation that's steel something from us so we have to be

[00:46:43] aware of the way the enemy is going to tempt us to buy into something that's actually good for us when we take it to an ultimate is gonna actually destructive for us or to us and this is what Lucifer

[00:46:56] does in the Garden of Eden when he presents the fruit I follow an Old Testament scholar Gordon Wenham I think Wenham is brilliant like why was the tree ever there in the first place right well I think

[00:47:07] and I'm following one I think the tree of life the tree of good and evil of knowledge and the tree of life those are actually there for Adam and Eve as rewards to to experience after they've done

[00:47:19] the great commission after they've accomplished the task in front of them and so that's why it's present what the enemy does is short circuit the work and the vocation the responsibility and try to get

[00:47:30] them to buy into the prize before they've worked for it and so doing so they send so the presence of the tree isn't like this sick trick that God had for them like I'm just set you know the

[00:47:43] gold in front of everybody so that you can steer it it's like no this is the reward you know this is what you're waiting for you but you need to have at the right time and so when the enemy

[00:47:52] works the enemy works I don't think more often in obvious like crazy demonic evil stuff I think more often than not it's actual subtle it's taking good stuff that we over indulge and

[00:48:06] it has vestiges of the gospel it has aspects of humanity that we actually value and love you know I would take something like sex sex is a really good thing sexuality is a really great thing

[00:48:19] that God has gifted us with but when that becomes a defining identity marker of what makes you a human then that thing becomes destructive to you because now my the ability to have sex or

[00:48:32] sexuality you know this is the the Roman world it becomes a marker of freedom and so you have an orgies and do all this kinds of debatory that's present and that's demonic there is their dark

[00:48:43] forces behind that and notice how they've taken something very good and holy in the confines of how God intended it and then strips the boundaries and barriers so that it can be like fire they're just consumed. Yeah I completely agree wholesale with what you're saying because I think

[00:49:02] and I think I had this this opinion viewpoint before I really started doing some of the things that I do now but now it's almost like what I find myself constantly trying to convince people of

[00:49:11] it's like yeah every so often you know spiritual warfare and the demonic will look like what it looks like in the movies but more often than not like when we see demons in the new testament

[00:49:21] right what are the things that always accompany them self harm right the hatred of the body you know drunkenness like you mentioned drunkenness or he's right the fruit of the flesh

[00:49:32] and so you know we all look for where we hear spiritual warfare and we we look for these crazy signs like these these power encounters which is the term often used for

[00:49:44] used for it in a charismatic tradition and it's like yeah that that might be there from time to time but normally like you even mentioned like environments laced with toxicity and negativity and

[00:49:57] discouragement and it's like I don't think the church has done a good enough job and this is the beauty of this field of study which you know guys like you and hizer and so many others have

[00:50:08] begun doing which is helping people see the whole world is like what we see in Daniel is which is that there is a war in the heavenlies and so you know no there isn't a demon behind

[00:50:20] every uh blushing an angel behind every cloud but anytime evil is at play right there is warfare to be done there and you don't have to wait for you know something that looks like you know

[00:50:34] the exercise or something like that to believe that you know spiritual warfare is happening and then I guess my last question for you because uh you know you're not just an academic you know you are obviously involved in church ministry and in a ministerial teaching and preaching

[00:50:52] probably the area that like I have sought to understand myself because I'm not naturally like I hate to say some a pastor and like do all the things that I do but like I'm not naturally good at

[00:51:03] praying like I'm I really struggle my wife is she has the gift of faith and it's so she just man she has a this naturally vibrant prayer life and when I look at instances like Daniel

[00:51:15] where the angel comes and says hey there's a war in the heavenlies and your prayers have actually fueled me to get to you right and we see things like prayer and fasting in your opinion as we bring

[00:51:27] this even further down to the ground level because what we want is for people who've come to podcasts like this in ministry like mine in yours you know we want them to be able to walk away with like

[00:51:37] that not not that we want to make it super practical but this is super practical how in your opinion does things like prayer and fasting and devotion to the apostles teachings and the breaking of bread

[00:51:48] and so on and so on how do these things actually factor into this spiritual world that it's not compartmentalized we are in it like we actually live in a spiritual world you know in this

[00:52:00] moment how to prayer and fasting and you know just our faith factor into that that that aspect of it yeah I think it's multifaceted I think one that prayer like let's just talk about prayer

[00:52:12] for in general for a second prayer and the ancient world was something that in the Greek and Romans and even in the ancient Near Eastern world was something that was used as a leverage point by these

[00:52:24] false gods in order to leverage against humanity so like if you wanted something you would have to go through all these hoops right you'd have to do a suck we'd have to go through this you

[00:52:35] have to go through that and and you're praying just to gain their attention just to just have the hope of maybe they they just catch a glimpse of you for a second so prayer for the ancient world was

[00:52:47] like it was a dehumanizing aspect for them you know actually trying to gain their humanity by having the gods acknowledge them totally different in Christianity totally different in our faith where prayers, the gracious gift to actually let us know that there's a god who is aware

[00:53:04] and he's watching and he's observing and he's gotten with us and present throughout human history. This is the story of God and Eden he he does Adam and Eve don't go out don't go after the fall

[00:53:16] like in chase after him God seeks them out and he questions them you know you've got as aware of what's taking place and so I would say one is that we need to just kind of recognize

[00:53:26] something that I don't do well is just recognize like wow prayer is a is a position of power for the for the believer and that position of power is not something that we do but an awareness

[00:53:37] that God hears you know and so that is shaping it's life changing and then how the works in the supernatural world is that prayer for me is something that lets the enemy know that we're

[00:53:55] tapped into the reality of the cosmos right and so again there's there there is some strategy that's taking place when you and I pray when we participate in Ephesians 6 and the armor of God which

[00:54:11] you know the majority of those are defensive weapons prayer is this thing that's almost this transition everything that is both defensive and offensive and as we prayer it's like we're opening up the battle lines of communication and that that open line of communication changes

[00:54:27] the atmosphere for the way the enemy works it changes the strategy changes all of that so I think in Daniel what's taking place is enemies like you know like crap like things things have to change

[00:54:41] like you know he's aware they're aware the people got are aware and so now we've got to to shake to shake things up and so prayers are gift man it's a gift for us it's both something

[00:54:52] that is changing us as well as it's changing something else often we think of prayer physically and I love that you ask this question very like few like I've never really heard this preach that prayers is supernatural act you know there's changing something spiritually

[00:55:08] and I think we're treating that is is really important yeah well I completely agree and you know not in this interview and not in really anything I've seen out of your theological work and even

[00:55:20] the stuff that you do on social media have I seen anything that hasn't drawn me you know further into the love of the word and and I think you and in so many people like you but specifically you are

[00:55:32] a great example for listeners to to to understand theology matters you know as being a solid Bible student matters and it matters in a great deal like to our everyday lives because

[00:55:45] not just in the the components of spiritual warfare and the things that so often come up in a tap types conversation but yeah you you are great evidence of that and and I'm so appreciative

[00:55:57] as I'm sure the listeners are you know people need to go follow at modem allay on instagram go to the website jolta speakings and follow his wife what is her handle because how most Indian wife

[00:56:14] almost in the in life um in disease hilarious and as you mentioned pre show the dichotomy disparity between what you know you doing all of the theological stuff and then her posting hilarious reels and things like that is just an important um important thing I think

[00:56:32] people need to see but but jol I'm so appreciative of you man and you know I told you at the beginning um you know you being on lists like what outreach did and you know being really well known around

[00:56:45] the area that you and I both live in up here in the southeast I think is indicative of a faithfulness that you demonstrated thus far to get you here but then also too I just think God has great plans for you

[00:56:56] so I'm so appreciative of your time in your wisdom speaking into this um and just you know being being a friend of mine and and and and it's happened everything else so thank you so much for doing this

[00:57:05] you bet such an honor for me appreciate a wrap thank you for listening to this episode of base camp if you want more help engaging the least reached people and the darkest places with the

[00:57:34] gospel I want to invite you to join the all things all people engage network by joining the engage network you will receive training in worldview and world religions leadership discipleship evangelism and apologetics you'll also receive demographic analysis and outreach strategy

[00:57:53] that will help you to accurately target your city with the gospel and access to all of ataps educational materials if you want to learn more just go to all thingsallpeople.org and click on engage network thanks for listening I hope you love the show